Sell me the mechanics

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    • Sell me the mechanics

      ...not the setting, that's sold. This is some of the best artwork I have ever seen for a role playing game (I may get the book even if I never play it). I find the backstory and culture very evocative as well. I found and read all the fantastic fiction, mythology and such I could get my hands on when I was a kid including Far Eastern, the Kalevala, and so on...like some others here I didn't stop with King Arthur, Greek mythology, and all the other familiar legends and stories. My father taught me to read with Robin Hood and the Wizard of Oz when I was 3 or 4, and I haven't stopped to this day. So naturally Shard has attracted my eye.

      Right now I have some credit at nobleknight, and they have all the released Shard stuff except the big map. They also have Conan, Earthdawn, etc. I can only afford to buy into one right now. ($75)

      So help me out. Tell me why this is a better choice than the above mentioned gamebooks.

      About me and my tastes...partly my hesitation is caused by my dislike of martial arts, which in Shard seems to be a important facet of the culture and the game, perhaps unavoidably so. Partly the magic seems a bit too nebulous. Is any magic done outside the Dream Realm? How does that work? I don't quite understand from the Introduction packet (Please excuse my denseness). It seems to me that the way it is set up magic use would slow the game to a standstill... while the mage of the group was fighting a magical battle in the Dream Realm what would the rest of the party be doing? I have run into this problem before, in science fiction games where a computer hacker would be 'in the machine' and everyone else sidelined. How is this handled?

      Having two types of damage seems cumbersome as does the very detailed hit modification table. Do you think I could you retain the flavor of the setting with a cut down combat and magic system, say similar to Stormbringer or Call of Cthulhu (which one of the authors mentioned in another thread)? It's not that I think it a bad system, I just prefer something with fewer bells and whistles. I have BRP in mind, or the system as is in a simpler form.

      Anyway, thanks for any help.
    • RE: Sell me the mechanics

      Hey there!

      Well,...I can't speak as to whether our game's mechanics are "better" than Earthdawn or Conan. A lot of that is up to the individual tastes of the players or GMs themselves... But what I can say is that our system, made by folks who enjoy role-playing over mechanics, caters to the idea of a more cinematic approach to gaming...

      In the "old days" a lot of systems (including those that were my favorite at the time), lent themselves to both magic and combat that ended up being little more that a back and forth litany of "I attack you, and either hit or miss,....you attack me, and either hit or miss..." This held true whether it was with swords and maces, guns and cannons, or fireball and lightning bolts... There were other types of systems, of course, complex systems (especially for the giant robot battles or super-hero game systems) that made every single strike consume multiple minutes of careful choices, complex math (in some cases), and ornate hit resolution involving armor class, defensive powers, and all sorts of other trivia, such as missile directionality, altitude, speed, etc....

      We're somewhere in between all of that...closer to the relative simplicity of the former, but with enough fun detail derived from the overly-complex latter to summon up good mental images of how a battle unfolds, while simultaneously keeping enough of that fast-paced "Jacky Chan" feeling to keep folks happy...

      Don't like Martial Arts? That's OK,...not everyone in the game of SHARD has them,...and at least one of my players chose not to take them as a Skill... Combat still works the same way, though...since the basic idea is that combat skills (like all skills in the game), work on the simple foundation of taking your dice equal to you Skill's Ranking, adding or subtracting any Modifiers that might apply as more or less dice you will roll, and then rolling those dice against your opponent when it's your turn to attack. If you score more successes than they do, you hit them,...if you don't, then they've defended against you successfully... The same happens when it's their turn...

      The Maneuver Location Table you mention, usable by either martial artists regularly or non-martial artists (at a small penalty modifier), simply offers maneuvers that allow different combat effects you can achieve in addition to a standard damaging hit you might do to your opponent. To use those maneuvers, you would describe the fact that you want to do so while in combat (which helps describe the scene nicely to those involved), subtract the modifier for doing so from the dice you're about to use to attack, and then roll the dice as described above... If you roll more successes to attack than your opponent does to defend, then you successfully perform the maneuver, and all of its special combat effects occur to your opponent... The table really isn't that complex, it just shows you the various places you might describe hitting someone in combat, the special maneuvers commonly associated with those chosen hit locations (along with descriptions of those maneuvers' effects at the bottom), and the penalty modifier to dice subtracted from your dice pool before you roll (thus making it slightly more difficult to perform the maneuver).... Even my martial artist players don't use that table every time,...just when they want to do something extra-cool that the table allows...

      You can totally "just hit them" if you want to, though my players generally like to describe "how they hit" their opponent, to make things more fun and cinematic, even if they don't choose to take the modifier and get the extra special effects that the maneuvers from the table can allow...

      As far as the two types of damage goes, this simply serves the cinematic purpose of combat by informing the players as to 'how' an opponent (or they, themselves) get defeated... Regardless of what "type" of damage you take (either subdue or fatal), when you have lost all your Stamina Levels, you have been defeated; the battle is over, and you can no longer fight or resist your opponent... However, by being able to cause (and take) two different types of damage, the system lets you know in what manner you were defeated, which is something that certainly has an effect on the outcome of the combat, and the story derived from it... Someone that is defeated with more fatal damage that subdue damage is unconscious and bleeding to death,...and if they reach -10 Stamina they're dead! Someone who is defeated with more subdue damage than fatal damage is most likely conscious, is not bleeding to death, but can no longer fight (though they are able to speak), and can be led away in chains, captured, or otherwise treated as a prisoner subdued in combat....

      What helps make the combat system more "Jackie Chan"-like? The fact that when you fight in the game, you get multiple actions to perform during a round (which you roll to determine at the beginning of the round).... These Combat Actions (assuming you haven't used them up during combat) can be used to perform multiple attack/maneuvers in a row (when it's your turn in order of initiative), to defend yourself whenever you are attacked...AND they can be used to "React", one at a time, anytime someone else performs actions during a combat... It's that "attack, defense, reaction" thing that really helps combat flow, and makes sure that folks who are last in Initiative don't feel like they are stuck doing nothing till it's their turn...

      As far as the magic goes? The SHARD RPG strives to make magic a cinematic experience for the sorcerer character AND his friends... It does this by creating cool mystical scenes for others to enjoy listening to, even if they are not actively participating in the magic ritual scene being played out... However, that is not to say that a good GM can't or shouldn't make sure these scenes aren't played out in ways that involve everyone in the party... They SHOULD, in fact... An easy example of this would be to create a scene where other players are "drawn" into the Dream by the sorcerer... By doing so they are put at risk, may have to face perils themselves, and are directly involved in the activities there... Another example would be a combat happening in the Dream involving the sorcerer fighting the spiritual manifestation of a demon (let's say), while his comrades in the waking world deal with the physical manifestation of the same demon... A wise GM would go back and forth between the two battles (in high cinematic fashion, of course) so that the battles resolved themselves simultaneously, and to the enjoyment of everyone!

      And as far as magic happening outside the Dream? Absolutely! Seers can see visions in crystals, pools of water, shifting sands, whatever, and can invite others to view them too,....Healers can perform their amazing arts while other watch after a battle,...Endowers can create magical objects (including weapons) that can be used by themselves and others in the waking world,....and Summoners can call up swarms of insects, terrible demons, or spiritual manifestations that make a very real impact on the rest of the world...

      Anyway,...I hope this clarifies this for you a bit better... There's no real way I can actually "convince" you to enjoy our system... All I can really do is inform you of it as best I can (as we tried to do in the Welcome Booklet), and hope that you find the idea interesting enough to try it for yourself!

      Let us know what you end up deciding!

      And if others from the forums have anything to add,...feel free to chime on in!

      Scottie ^^
    • RE: Sell me the mechanics

      To play devil's advocate, Dungeons and Dragons 4E provides simple, fast mechanics, adds tactical depth to combat, and removes RP-killing abilities such as "detect evil" from the game. A short list of general skills means you're always looking for ways to use them- using Nature to chat about the weather with a guard, for example, to distract him from yor rouge buddy.

      It is also designed to keep the emphasis on the entire party- nobody is left waiting while someone else does their thing. This includes combat- every class is designed to contribute, each in their own way.
    • Thank you.

      I don't mean for you to have to defend your game, I hope you know that. It looks very good, but just isn't the kind of system I am used to. And I am not entirely comfortable with the Zoic concept or the dice pools. At least the dice pools are smallish, usually 5-8 I think I read somewhere. Anyway, I did not expect you to post something that lengthy and involved, but your passion shows through in doing it anyway. You do have a lot of good points, and I have been looking for something different, I'll admit. This is different and apparently solid. My instinct says go, the cautious me says be careful.

      You have clarified a couple of key points. I read the Welcome Booklet, but still was not clear on those points (essentially the use of the Manuever table and how magic use relates to the 'real' world.

      I like give and take combat systems. The best I have had experience with was Elric!, later Stormbringer 5. The one I liked best was Stormbringer 1. Both involved not getting hit, NOT 'battering each other into submission, and whoever has the most hit points wins'. You had to think tactically to survive, basically.

      Anyway, I'm still thinking about it. I really like the art and the writing, in any case. I do hope some of the others put in a word, too. Insight from someone not so close to the creative process would be very valuable.
    • *shrug*4E is a wonderfully Gygaxian RPG, but you may consider Gygaxian (Gygax, creator of D+D and the Tomb of Horrors) and RPG to be contradictory terms. It has never forgotten it's skirmish-wargaming origins, that's for sure...

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Draj ().

    • *coughs and drop two cents on the table*

      First off: to each their own. I can barely stand to play D&D 3.5, because it's a power-gamers playground and seems designed for munchkining, but I really enjoy D&D 4E because of it's limits - and because, to me, it encourages role-play not dictated by dice.

      Creating role-playing and stories is something that is entirely up to the players and the GM. Despite my intense dislike of D&D 3.5, one of my favorite PCs was created and played in that system.

      Potential for story and for RP exists in every RPG - you just have to find it or create it yourselves. I don't think blaming the system or blaming the game design for lack of RP is fair.

      Blaming a system or a game design for not having the kinds of characters you want to play or having a mechanic you don't enjoy is fine - but everyone wants something different out of the RP experience.

      My brother is a huge fan of cinematic, stand-up battles. Fights where the characters stagger away, bleeding and tired but victorious - where it was so very possible everyone would die horribly. And he turns these fights into some awesome RP moments.

      The best system we've found for that kind of thing is D&D.

      One of my friends loves deep, intricate and mysterious stories full of politics and intrigue, where you can't trust anyone but your party and you have to figure out who has what agenda. His favorite system is White Wolf's storyteller system, specifically vampire.

      Another member of my group loves playing characters with legendary powers - demi-god level might and all the ethical conundrums that come from that while fighting others of the same power level for supremacy. He loves the old Abberant system.

      I love games with strong character-driven storylines, where the PCs are the underdogs in a world out to get them, full of people who want to kill/capture/use the PCs to their own ends, where every advantage is a disadvantage and everyone has baggage to deal with.

      One of my favorite systems is Earthdawn (or Shadowrun, when I want sci-fi elements).

      Every system and setting has something to offer and something that someone won't like. I really think the 'X system is better than Y system' arguments are usually fallacious and generally based as much as opinion as fact.

      That said - Shard's mechanic is one that - to me - does a fantastic job of balancing the power-gaming and min-maxing aspects of point-buy systems while still allowing for the freedom of design point-buy gives. While it's harder to have a character who is both a fighter and a magician, you can still have a combat character with a few magic tricks up their sleeve.

      Shard also gives a framework for designing characters in the profession system. These are not 'classes' as most RPGs use them; they are professions - careers - their point cost reflecting the time effort and energy a character has put into training and learning their profession.

      The combat and magic mechanics can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be. Everything from 'I hit the assassin in the face' and you roll an unarmed melee attack to a dramatic attack where you leap up, do a forward roll over an ornate dinner table, do a fun twist-and-spin movement and throw a side-kick from a crouch to kick the assassin in the face.

      I think the key word in Shard's mechanic is 'flexibility'.

      The place this really shows is in the magic system.

      Scott already said just about everything I would say about magic, especially using the Dream, but he didn't hit one point I think should not go unsaid. Excepting those games designed specifically around primarily magic-using characters, in most RPGs, magic can usually be split into two or maybe three categories: combat, utility and divination/information gathering.

      Combat powers are just that - they either buff other characters, do damage, heal damage or are somehow relevant to surviving and defeating opponents in battle.

      Utility powers open doors, identify items, charm people into talking, find and disarm traps, provide food and shelter, etc.

      Divination/information gathering powers allow characters to ask questions of other-planar creatures, divine answers to questions, spy on enemies, use arcane arts to invade computer systems, etc.

      Shard makes little distinction between the three types. Magic just is and it is up to the GM and players to make magic work how they want it to. Spell lists and pre-determined effects and specific components are useful, but how many times have you played a game and said 'I wish this spell worked this way instead of that way' or 'I wish this spell existed'?

      I dunno about you, but in every game I've played in or run, I've heard those questions asked, and more than half the time, our group has modified or changed the magic system to make it work like we needed it for our specific story and characters.

      Shard's magic system is open-ended, allowing the players and GM to create the effects you want, when you want them, how you want them. This does make it harder to create effects and relies on the ingenuity and imagination of the players and GM, but it also allows for the creative freedom in magic you don't see very often - except in games where non-magic using characters get the short end of the stick.

      The thing about Shard, I think, that makes me more interested in it than I would be in Conan or Earthdawn is that open-ended flexibility, both in terms of system and in terms of story.

      The stories in Shard are not chosen by the setting they way they would be in Earthdawn or Conan; Shard's setting, while it does put some structure on the stories, does not have a meta-plot in place to fit your stories in to.

      (So, two cents apparently buys a lot of babbling from me. Who knew?)
      /jayiin
    • I don't blame a system for anything. On the other hand, I call a spade a spade. IMO, NO iteration of D&D is well designed. The concept is great, the implementation, meh. Fair has no place in the discussion...the fact is that most popular games are popular and chosen because they are pretty and visible, and many games that are better designed and would be more fun go by the wayside because of a lack of visibility. There are better games free on the internet! I share your distaste of 3.5, but I find it interesting that you like 4e, as to me it is 3.5 on steroids. As you say, each to his own.

      Open to interpretation is fine, but the magic system in Shard has red flags going up for me because it appears that it might have the characteristic of halting the game while the magic using PC and the GM played a little side game while the rest of the players listen or twiddle their thumbs. I haven't decided yet to what extent that would be a problem for me. What you are saying makes me think I would have to houserule the game fairly extensively, and that will likely make for a 'no thanks' here. Then again, it's awfully pretty. The two might balance out in this case. Ultimately I think the deciding factor will be how well I can wrap my head around the Zoic concept.

      Thank you for your input.
    • Originally posted by badcat
      Open to interpretation is fine, but the magic system in Shard has red flags going up for me because it appears that it might have the characteristic of halting the game while the magic using PC and the GM played a little side game while the rest of the players listen or twiddle their thumbs. I haven't decided yet to what extent that would be a problem for me. What you are saying makes me think I would have to houserule the game fairly extensively, and that will likely make for a 'no thanks' here.


      Juggling the pacing of either combat or magic (or both simultaneously), is less of a matter of creating "houserules" to handle it, and more of a matter of deciding the best way to switch between a magic ritual scene that's being created, and the events transpiring in another scene occupied by those not currently involved in the ritual... Sometimes that'll be necessary to keep up the excitement though good pacing, and sometimes it won't (if the magic scene is interesting enough).

      Every GM runs their games differently, and makes different choices about how to subdivide attention between individual players (or groupings of players) so that everyone feels that they had a chance to enjoy the spotlight for a bit... That's not a rules concern, that's a referee talent. Having an individual sorcerer enjoy their little magic scene is really no different than having ANY other individual player enjoy a momentary role-playing scene with some NPC or other player while the rest of the players await their turn to step on stage...

      I know of no game I've ever played in which every player was occupied simultaneously all the time... Depending on the individual adventure situation, there will always be moments where separated characters act on their own for a short bit in a scene centered only around them...whether that scene involves magic or not. From a cinematic standpoint (which, again, this game absolutely supports and encourages), changing focus between individual players or groupings of players can be like the changing of scenes in a soap opera or movie... As long as the scenes are interesting enough, even non-engaged players will have a good time listening and watching (as opposed to merely twiddling their thumbs in boredom)... It's up to the GM and all the players working as a team to make sure that utterly boring moments aren't played out as in-game scenes, and are instead consigned to "off-screen" time that doesn't need to be role-played through, and can be resolved with a few rolls made quickly and efficiently...

      Scottie ^^
    • There is far to much arguing going on here. Simple solution to maximize fun.

      Step one: Get Friends

      Step two: Play Shard

      Step three: laugh at all other games in comparison.

      When you follow these three rules you will find that your having fun and not just trolling forums.

      P.S. Want gygaxian? Play Expedition to the barrier peaks?

      Now that is settled, buy two books and mail one to me.
      Rhinos don't wear t-shirts.
    • Originally posted by badcat
      I am not trolling, I don't do 'gygaxian'.

      Unsold.

      Good bye.


      Goodbye Badcat...

      Hopefully you find a game system out there that you enjoy playing without requiring folks to convince you of its merits...

      Apparently there's only so much that can be said about something they appreciate before folks get irritated at the repetition... Some folks enjoy "drawing others into the fold" so-to-speak, while others can find that type of interaction tedious if there's too much apparent resistance.

      In all honesty, I probably did you a disservice by simply failing to say, up front, that if the 72-page Welcome Booklet with all the basic rules about magic and combat failed to convince you that you'd enjoy playing the game, then most likely nothing I (or any of its current fans) could say would help...

      I appreciate your comments concerning the beauty of the game and its presentation. I worked very hard on that, and enjoyed the process... However, mere art does not make a good game.

      As to the quality of our system, I prefer to consider the fact that I and my business partner have been running games of SHARD, in one form or another as the rules have been carefully crafted and re-crafted, for over 16 years...(as a mere labor of love for over ten years before actually selling it as a product became a possible reality). Many players have remained members of the "core" group, and other players have come and gone (and in many cases come back again)... This level of loyalty and excitement over a game for so long wouldn't exist, I don't believe (for either them or me), without the presence of a strong core rules system that really caters to player entertainment...

      It may not be for everybody, though... So if playing with your friends through the little adventure included at the back of the Welcome Booklet PDF doesn't please you, then odds are your gut instincts are most likely right, and this particular game system just isn't for you...

      Me,...I like to think of the games I play as well-worn pairs of beloved old house-slippers... Even new games I find need to fill me with that same warm, communal feeling when I gather with my friends to play...

      Hopefully you'll find something that you can slip more easily and comfortably into...

      Take care, and have fun!

      Scottie ^^
    • Originally posted by badcat Ultimately I think the deciding factor will be how well I can wrap my head around the Zoic concept.


      Not to add insult to injury here, but am I the only one the found it mildly ironic that the Zoic concept (animal-men) was a "deciding factor" for a man that identified himself as a "cat".
      ToG

      "Violence may not be the best option..... but it's still an option!"