Filght issues I am running into....

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    • Filght issues I am running into....

      Ok, perhaps I am missing something in the core book, but here is the situation. Over the weekend I was running our newly established campaign and long story short, one of my players is a heron. I was running into all kinds of problems with flight, and perhaps I am looking too far into this but here goes….
      Weight limits? The player was flying around with a small ton of gear on. I used the strength rules that were applied but they seemed a bit off when it comes to defying gravity. Are there any established rules on this at all, and I am just missing them?

      Actions while flying. I am all about the taking of actions while in flight, however, those actions must hold a bit of logic. Perhaps it’s just the way the drawings are, but I am left with the impression that the hands of the flyer are a part of the wing structure. Perhaps done intentionally, to keep flying “balanced”, but the player in question was trying to attack with a spear while flying. I was like, “if you are using your arms for something besides wind currents and lift then you’re falling like a rock.” Was that the basis for the decision to have the wings a part of the appendage rather then on the back, like an angel? I am looking into if I should change it to make the wings come out of the back, however, that may very well unbalance the character to others.

      The player argues that he sees no rules about using the arms for other actions while flying, and I can find none as well. I am all about bending reality for a game, but if there is actually no need for “wings” while in flight, then what stops, say an elephant form doing such?

      I told him "if he had prehensile feet I would allow him to pick up weight appropriate objects and drop them on persons on the ground, but that the use of arms was out of the question".

      The third issue(s), and I addressed this prior to the game. If a person has, and takes, the flight ability and expects to do more then glide then I limit their vig. to a max of 4. The reason birds are able to fly is (two fold) because of their light weight compared to the wing span (and the lift produced by the wind currents). Regardless, one thing that keeps the birds weight down is that their bones are hollow. This is why they die when they fly into your window: it causes their bones to break. Hollow bones are a very bad thing if one expects to get into physical combat.

      Another idea I am toying with is instead of limiting the vig., making a mandatory drawback (fragile) for any avian base that takes the flight ability. Fragile would make recuperation times longer from wounds. Gotta do some numbers crunching on it to figure out exactly how much longer, but something of this nature would make some interesting game play decisions for the bird players.

      The second part of this is more of an issue and it involves the surface area of the wings themselves, an eagle’s wing-span can extend past 10 foot. That would force the player to have 5 foot arms “if” they were the size and weight of the eagle. As they are not the players arm length would have to extend to over 10 foot each to produce the surface area needed to create the lift for flight. (Never addressed this in my game, this is just me being anal).

      Developement of a martial arts style for the avian communtiy, that focuses on avoidance and using the momentum of the attacker agianst them could be something to look into. Then changing around their stam. to represent near misses rather that actual life points.

      Again, perhaps I am reading too far into all this, but I am attempting to ascertain as to the structure of the wings and if that was a game mechanics decision or just an artist interpretation, and some rules clarifications.
      ToG

      "Violence may not be the best option..... but it's still an option!"

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Tides of Gore ().

    • RE: Filght issues I am running into....

      Hey Tides!

      Well,...the way I choose to look at this kind of stuff in general is, this is fantasy, on an alien world where the rules of physics don't quite apply the way they do on our Earth... It's also a game where players should feel like heroes without having to dance around too many un-fun restrictive rules... There should be limits and balances, of course, but if it makes the fun of the game evaporate, then they should be meted out carefully and considerately...

      Balance between fun and realism is the key here...with (in my humble opinion) a leaning toward fun... This is meant to be escapist fantasy, after all...

      To address Flight specifically:

      The way I tend to look at Flight is,...players pay a fair amount of points for the ability as part of their avian Animal Template, and thus should be able to enjoy using it in the game without feeling like simply being a bird Zoic is a disadvantage in and of itself... That's no fun to me, honestly, and might make players wish they hadn't chosen to be a bird...

      The construction of the wings (and the structure of the body and its skeleton and muscles used to support "arm wings"), is based partially on an excellent image we discovered of a newborn bird (of some kind) showing that it possesses actual little "hands" where we depict our hands on the avian Zoics...(and bats as well)... Though we had long ago decided to deal with our wings in this way, this little picture justified our decision, at least in our own minds...

      [Blocked Image: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/Jadugara/paksinhandexample.jpg]

      We also considered the essential structure of wings in general, and decided to continue with this model simply because it made the most sense to have the hand of our avian Zoics originate in a place where it seemed to match placement in real winged creatures, since real animals' wings take the place of their forelimbs in all cases...and ancient pterosaurs practically had full hands there as well...

      [Blocked Image: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/bat-wing.gif]
      [Blocked Image: http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/lrg/10133_6100894819.jpg]

      As a result,...we threw the whole "angel wing" idea out the door as being somewhat out of place, as would a four-armed Zoic of any kind... It just didn't make us happy...

      As far as your specific questions:

      Weight Limits - Continuing our concept of "it needs to be fun and easy", we handled carry-able weight based on Strength across the board, just as the rules state, and just didn't worry about it further than that, nor really chose to make any distinctions between standard encumbrance and flying encumbrance... If you feel the desire to impose further restrictions to satisfy your own sense of correctness, feel free to do so, if you and your players are comfortable with it... We just tend to keep it simple, and just not worry about the "little things"... Most Strength issues get balanced out because most Paksin Templates have less Strength anyway, compared to other Templates, and thus the fact they carry less is already "built in" in many cases...

      As far as Combat Actions while flying, though their hands are indeed attached to the wings, and move with them during flight, the way I run my games is; they may carry (and effectively manipulate, since their wrists may bend and rotate independently) individual, weapon-sized, one-handed objects with those hands while flying, and though they must stop flapping their wings normally needed to fly, glide, or hover while attempting to use such items (draw an arrow, fire a bow, shoot a gun, throw a spear, or wield any kind of weapon), "falling like a rock" seems a bit extreme to me, and is not really the way I tend to imagine it happening, and I instead imagine that their wings beyond their hands remain outstretched to an extent, allowing them to employ a "controlled fall" in place (spinning slowly, if they wish), wherein they lose some altitude. If they aren't already high enough (in my mind) to lose such altitude safely, then I sometimes make them take another Flight action to remain in the air when they're done acting, or to land safely, whichever they choose... Remember,...Actions during a Combat Round happen in mere seconds (within about 6 seconds for everything, and sometimes taking less than a second each), and unless they use the entire round up with Actions as they let themselves fall, it's safe to assume that most Paksin are wise enough not to try such maneuvers at extremely low altitude... I sometimes use the hard and fast rule that, for every Acton they use that causes them to stop flapping during such "controlled falls", they lose about 10 feet of altitude. If they didn't fly up high enough before trying to perform such actions, then I warn them that they are descending dangerously close to the ground, and let them decide how they want to handle it...

      As far as your third concern goes, again,...I wouldn't dwell on it too much, otherwise you could easily take the fun out of playing a bird... Hopefully that's not an objective... We never imagined our Paksin to be any less vigorous than the Vigor on their own Animal Templates indicate. And although Paksin bones are indeed somewhat porous, and thus lighter for the purposes of flight, their fragility (beyond any lower Vigor we may have assigned them) is not something we wanted to make an issue of. You'll notice that we decided not to go the route if having a giant keel bone on our Paksin either... Yes,...many of these decisions were simply meant to enhance the fun and visual coolness of our Paksin (and other winged creatures, like bats), but we did put some thought into it, just for the sake of consistency as our own concepts jelled during the creation of the game...

      Here is a furless/skinless example of the structure of our bats' wings (oh,... and check out the areas where the membranes have been cut to allow clothing and other such things to pass around the body):
      [Blocked Image: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/Jadugara/bat_wing.jpg]
      Note the amount/size of the wing as it extends beyond the hand? The distance from the hand to the actual end of the wing tip is more than twice the distance from the hand to the shoulder... This is about what I had in mind for the Paksin as well, and in my mind looks and feels about "right" for a wing structure meant to hold up a body of one of our jánah in flight, plus allow them to carry some more if necessary, within the limits of their strength...

      When I run my game, if they have prehensile feet, then they can hold an object aloft in their feet that would normally require two hands to carry. They may not wield two-handed objects with their hands while they are flapping their wings...though they can fire bows and rifles and such if they choose to do so while making their "controlled fall"...

      Anyway,...these are merely my own preferences when having folks play Paksin in my own game, and is the basis by which the rules you currently find in the Basic Compendium are written (though not all of what I have described is demonstrated in the rules)... As always, we try to keep it simple, and we totally suggest that, if those rules seem "lacking" in any way to you or your players,...by all means tailor them to your heart's content for your own games,...we totally don't mind... House Rules are House Rules... It's what makes it feel "right" to you that counts!

      Scottie ^^
    • RE: Filght issues I am running into....

      I agree with Scott that what a winged Zoic can do while flying is really up to the GM. If you want more of a fantastical approach to your campaign, then allowing winged Zoics to use hand-held objects or weapons while flying seems the way to go, although I'd apply Scott's falling rule. If you wanted to restrict this a bit more, then you should limit what a winged Zoic can do while flying.

      For my tastes, I would allow winged Zoics to use Vaylah pistols while flying (which is a simple point-and-shoot) or to use one-handed weapons during a fly-by attack (swoop by an opponent and slash with a bladed weapon or hurl a javelin) but I wouldn't allow them to use two-handed weapons such as spears, bows, Vaylah rifles, etc. They'd have to land in order to use any two-handed weapon (or to perform any task that required both of their hands). But my campaign would then be less "high fantasy" than Scott's so those restrictions would make sense.

      If you wanted to take it even further, I'd suggest not allowing a winged Zoic to use any tool or weapon in their hands while flying. They still could, however, use weapons in their feet if they took Prehensile Limb (Feet). It's totally up to you.

      As far as how much weight they can carry, again, if you want more of a fantasy approach, then let them carry what their Strength score would allow. If you wanted a more restricted approach then halve (or even quarter, depending on how restricted you want to get) their Strength Characteristic (rounding up) and use that for an approximation of how much they could carry while flying.

      Hope that helps. :)

      -Aaron
    • Thanks guys,
      That picture of the bat zioc with the outstretched wings helped me visualize the concept alot. It makes more sense now! The pictures in the book don't really address the concept.
      I was more worried that flight unbalanced the game with actions and that the arms/wings were placed together on purpose to limit it. I have no problem with it as it stands, I just didn’t get the correct concept when I read it. As the guy was trying to use a spear, I still feel justified in my rulings, but I will allow one handed attacks as normal with the 10ft “controlled” fall as described.
      I had not done the math on the strength, so was unaware of the limits already imposed on the birds. That helps too!
      I explained to the player at the time, that I wasn’t sure what the purpose of the arm/wings were so I wasn’t trying to limit his fun, but to keep him in balance with the rest of the party. The wings allowed him to gain ground in the fight and I gave him bonuses for height advantage, he was very happy with those (kinda a give and take I used with him, as I took his attacks in mid-air away, I gave him a purpose for the bird toon, with an advantage to it). The table of players agreed with it once all was said and done, so I may actually keep it this way just because it made peace, will have to see what we, as a group, wish to do about it.
      Thanks for clearing this up, I’m sure my Heron player will adore you for it.
      ToG

      "Violence may not be the best option..... but it's still an option!"
    • Sure! We're always glad to help clear stuff like this up for folks... After all, we look at this kinda stuff as less "clarifying it" for you, and more as "sharing our interpretation" of our basic set of rules with you...

      However you wish to interpret the essentials for your own use is totally OK with us...

      The images of our winged Zoics were usually created using the production rule that, while assembling the initial look, photographic reference was to be used to align the bird's real wing up with the shape of the human arm of the initial sketch (sizing and manipulating the wing image in various ways, while always maintaining the proportion of the wing as a whole) till the skeletal joints of the real wing matched the actual joints of the figure's arm in the sketch to some extent, allowing the rest of the length of the wing beyond the hand to be made apparent through this process. What you get from this is usually a visual presentation of the wing's proper length that may not always be that exact ratio/length from hand to tip of wing I have shown for the bat (since the wing size to body size ratio for birds varies wildly depending on the size and species), but is often close enough to make it look fairly "right" for the sake of the illustration...

      As a result of the wing-size, most winged Zoics have their wings (past their hands) folded back or up so that they are tucked out of the way when in most social situations... For most of our art we haven't chosen to show this, since it can look a little awkward, as you can imagine... And the art for the templates often has them outstretched beyond the boundaries of the image border, so it's not always possible to get a good "read" on their structure...

      At some point, perhaps for the World Guide, I'll prepare an image like I did for the bat, showing the essential structure of Paksin wings (using an "average bird" jánah as an example), since folks seem to enjoy (and be informed by) looking at such studies...

      Scottie ^^
    • Cut membrane for clothing/equipment?

      I'm curious about the practice of cutting the wing membrane to allow clothing/equipment to pass around the body. A couple aspects of this to consider;
      Wouldn't this group have developed clothing or equipment which would drape over the shoulders or neck to provide the same function without the need to damage the wing?
      Assuming this doesn't overly impact the ability to cup the air, perhaps special piercings would have been created to reinforce the skin and prevent unwanted tearing. Could make for some interesting and functional body art.
      Concerning those same piercings, this may also be a way to account for the clothing and equipment situation. Studs could be placed in strategic locations and items or clothing could be hung from them.
      Like to see some art depicting that....
    • RE: Cut membrane for clothing/equipment?

      Originally posted by mbennett
      I'm curious about the practice of cutting the wing membrane to allow clothing/equipment to pass around the body. A couple aspects of this to consider;
      Wouldn't this group have developed clothing or equipment which would drape over the shoulders or neck to provide the same function without the need to damage the wing?
      Assuming this doesn't overly impact the ability to cup the air, perhaps special piercings would have been created to reinforce the skin and prevent unwanted tearing. Could make for some interesting and functional body art.
      Concerning those same piercings, this may also be a way to account for the clothing and equipment situation. Studs could be placed in strategic locations and items or clothing could be hung from them.
      Like to see some art depicting that....


      Yes indeed! There are no doubt numerous ways that the flying folk of the world would have come up with over the centuries to deal with clothing that effectively worked well with various kinds of wings...

      Many no doubt involve various forms of body modification... Some like I have illustrated with that particular bat, and others as you have described... All of them would have eventually been perfected to allow the wings unhampered flight with very little physical distress...

      You'll actually note in the Basic Compendium that the Animal Template for the flying squirrel also shows that his gliding flaps have been cut slightly to allow a simple belt to pass through... Sometimes it's just necessary...

      I love your piercing idea too,...that could look pretty damn cool if illustrated well, and with a design for cool fashion...

      Scottie ^^
    • RE: weapons in flight

      Originally posted by iceage
      I think the Zoics would find ways to use weapons in flight. Not just theri natural ones. I can see a zoic spinning in the air as it throws a knife or chakram and then pulling out of its dive.


      You have a good point there! :D

      Still, seeing as they use their arms to fly and pretty strong wind currents would tug tow at their wings, attempting such a feat might require formidable penalties on their ability to use their throwing weapon and to continue their flight.

      However, a flying Janah with enough points in "Prehensile Limbs: Feet" could attempt to use them to wield some kinds of weapons, maybe even a specially adapted type of bow, crossbow or rifle... :D

      And if your players decide to commission a special harness they can use to somehow affix a projectile weapon to their chests, or even a satchel charge that they can activate/drop by pulling a cord with their beak they could act as feathery bombers! ;D