Bundled Actions

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • Bundled Actions

      I had a question concerning bundled actions that came up in the campaign rather energetically.

      We were fighting a Makri, I threw a bundle of four daggers at it (for 2 damage base each) and rolled 6 successes. The makri had wasted all its actions on attacks, so it couldn't defend itself. How we figured the damage, it took over 80 damage, which is ridiculous. Now, we are wondering how to deal with bundled actions and damage rolls, to make sure we are doing it right.

      I understand that bundled actions only require one roll of the action dice, but how do we determine final damage?

      Do you get your number of successes + your base damage for every attack? (This is what we did via DM fiat)

      or

      Do you get the number of successes once + (base damage x number of attacks)

      or

      Neither?

      Thanks in advanced for helping clear up this mess.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ignus ().

    • My thoughts

      Don't know what a Makrah is . Do you mean Makri, sort of like a giant two-tailed scorpion? If so, they have 4 points of armor that should protect it from each attack that hits it regardless of wether or not it has any defense rolls left.

      1- sucess = 1/2 damage
      2-3 successes = full damage
      4-5 successes = x2 damage
      6-7 successes = x3 damage

      take your base damage and add the total number of successes. so 2+6 = 8 base damage. 6 successes also qualifies you for a x3 multiplier. 8x3 =24. Subtract the animals armor from each attack. (page 215 and 228 in the book) this ends up with 4 attacks *20 for 80 total damage.

      Those are the official rules.

      If you wanted combat to be a little less lethal. Add successes to damage (6+2 =8) Subtract the targets armor (8-4 =4) multiply this amount by the damage multiplier (4*3=12 per attack) this gives a total of 48 rather than 80 points of damage/ still lethal but not quite as bad. Now this is just my idea for cutting down the damage. if you ended up with a result of 0 after subtracting armor I would still allow the weapon to do its minimum damage per attack that hit.
      "One without crystal is without life"
    • RE: Bundled Actions

      Hey there Ignus!

      Iceage was totally correct with the answer to this one...

      Our system of combat (and the damage caused) can indeed be pretty lethal... When circumstances and a lucky roll allow for such an excellent hit (six successes getting through defense, allowing a damage multiplier of 3), then enemies (and friends) can end up getting destroyed REALLY quickly, unless they have the advantage of Story Points on their side... You and your GM should assume, in the case of your strike against the makri, that those four daggers simply plunged into the most vulnerable and lethal spot they could have struck, thus dealing an immediate mortal blow to the beast... This kind of thing happens in movies and heroic storylines all the time, which is exactly our goal...

      Caution should be taken when making combat less lethal, but there are indeed ways to do it, depending on the effect you want it to have in-game...
      • Iceage's suggestion will certainly work (subtracting the opponent's armor BEFORE the multiplier occurs), but this, in effect, makes your opponent's armor inadvertently gain a similar advantage from the multiplier you rolled...essentially allowing their armor to shield them from the effects of your awesome hit at a rate that increases along with the value of the multiplier rolled...
      • You could also choose to not use the Success Levels table on page 215, which shows the damage multipliers... Ignoring this table means that you will never see the kind of extreme damage you achieved against the makri...
      • Or perhaps you could choose to use only the second portion of the Deadly Combat Damage optional rule listed on page 225, wherein you calculate Stamina for everyone (and everything) using a x3 multiplier instead of the normal x2, and you would increase the way you calculate Toughness (for those that have it) by x4...


      There are many possibilities for decreasing overall damage received (and given) in the game, as long as you're OK with the various effects that might cause to combat pacing and the game's pace in general... Try one out for a game's combat session, and see how it feels to your group!

      Scottie ^^
    • Oh there's no need to make it less lethal, I was just surprised by the damage levels possible is all.

      But as far as the actual game went, my character has an endowed glove that allows him to form quasi-real throwing items out of his prana (draining him as if he were using a unique ritual in the dream realm), it's semi-real nature allowing it to slip partially through physical objects. I personally thought it was a great concept, but that's only me of course. :D

      But anyway, long story short, we basically said that the thing was violently torn asunder, both physically and metaphysically by the energies involved.

      Either way, I quite thoroughly enjoyed the gory description, and even soaked one of my party members in some scorpion giblets.

      ~Ignus

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Ignus ().

    • Greetings all,

      After digesting the rules for the past month, I've absolutely fallen in love with Shard. At Gen Con Scott assured me that Shard would scratch the Skyrealms of Jorune and Talislanta itch and he was right, boy was he ever!! :)

      The setting is rich and the art really does its job by conveying the alien beauty of Dardunah. The depth of zoic generation satisfies the biologist in me and that's saying something. Best of all the game system is at its root simple and easily modified to taste without wrecking the game, many many other fantasy rpgs published in the last decade can't make such a claim so the folks at Shard Studios are to be commended for such an outstanding freshman project. Kudos!!

      Now the criticisms and as always take these as a grain of salt and just one person's opinion, ok?

      The system favors fast and agile characters over strength and toughness. A quick and deft character will make mincemeat of a larger and tougher opponent just about every time because quick characters go first, always hit, are nearly untouchable, and ultimately deal more damage with smaller weapons than the bruisers wielding huge weapons.

      This combined with every combat skill also being tied to Dex and Agility characters with high strength but low-mediocre scores Dex/Agl scores are really going to suffer. Now I understand why elephants are afraid of mice. But seriously, this can be a problem with characters dealing 80+ points of damage long before a huge elephant with 30 Stamina can even take action.

      Initiative and Combat Actions are both tied to Agility and Dexterity and with Martial Arts replacing Melee, Brawl, Evade, and Throw characters who max out their Martial Arts and Acrobatics skills are pretty much going to rule the battlefield.

      Now toss on the lethality of the system due to adding net attack successes to damage then multiplying by the success level, Shard is in the running for the top three most lethal rpgs I've ever owned. Only Blue Planet 2.0 is ahead but not by much and only because of autofire and the ineffectiveness of armor.

      Which reminds me, Shard armor is generally not worth the penalties owing to the low armor ratings versus the high damage outputs by mice, shrews, and cats. Yes suthra armor grants limited regeneration but you don't regenerate after you're dead.

      Back to the add then multiply. One suggestion the book made to reduce lethality was to grant a +1 multiplier when computing Stamina so characters would have (Wil + Vig) x3 Stamina or x4 for large/tough zoics but this generally only means a difference of 10-20 Stamina which means one more round at most before the 3' tall mouse carves the 12' tall elephant into hamburger.

      Adding net successes to base damage then multiplying seriously kicks up the slope of the damage curve and mathematically it's double dipping. Net successes is reflective of degree of success so IMHO one or the other seems like the best idea for reducing lethality and since multiplication is harder than adding you can guess which one I favor.

      Combat Actions are a real bugbear and it's one more early round task that has to be made and monitored by both players and the GM. Determining Combat Actions is a little stilted as it solely relies upon the physical which is a design choice favoring (once again) small fast/deft characters. I'd suggest pairing of Per + Agl to account for the synergy of alertness and reflexes.

      Once you run out of defenses, you're vulnerable so a GM will regularly have NPC's swarmed by players and turned into mincemeat unless the GM fills the battlefield with lots of goons and subordinate antagonists meaning combat has the potential to drag on like a high level d20 3.x game.

      I still haven't grasped the particulars of Bundled Actions as of yet but I'll give the section a re-read tomorrow AM. There's also the question of of the timing of one's actions. Are all actions declared and taken in order of initiative and any unused Defenses are simply lost? Or does each combatant take one action in order of their initiative until all combatants are out of actions. In this case Defenses are more or less used reactively.

      To cut down on this I suggest the following optional rule: all characters receive a move and combat action per round for free. Any action beyond these freebies incurs a -1 penalty for each additional action, i.e. take four additional actions at -1, -2, -3, and -4 respectively. This way high Dex/Agl characters still have an advantage but nobody is left out and helpless when it rolls around to their turn which will happen frequently when facing a small and fast opponent who forces you to use all of your actions rolling defenses.

      The book says nothing about Acrobatics taking an action and if it costs nothing in terms of Combat Actions so I'd wager every character in Shard will have a high Acrobatics otherwise they'll be dead in one round. I'd suggest Acrobatics being a complimentary skill which would cost an action like any other skill in combat.

      As in all things, your mileage may vary. Scott and the other visionaries at Shard Studios have done a magnificent job and any of the items described above are only issues if the GM and his/her players feel the system (as written) gets in the way of their enjoying adventures on Dardunah. Like I always say, play what and how you like. :D

      Once again thanks to Scott and Aaron for their vision as well as their generosity and continued (hopefully!) patronage.

      May Your Line Be Blessed By Your Tears,

      >>ReaperWolf

      The post was edited 2 times, last by ReaperWolf ().

    • Your observations are quite accurate, ReaperWolf. Shard combat does favor characters who focus on Agility and Dexterity over Strength or Endurance. Part of the reason for this is my own bias - whether you hit an opponent or not depends on your accuracy, speed, and skill. Your accuracy is simulated (in the system) by your Agility and Dexterity; this is how much control you have over your body, your hand-eye coordination, and your reflexes. Your speed is simulated by your Agility, initiative, and Combat Actions. And your skill is simulated by how many Combat Dice you have in a particular Combat Skill - and this number can be increased by Story Points to show that with time, your skill can actually greatly aid your accuracy (which is why characters can buy their Combat Skills beyond their ratings in their Agility or Dexterity).

      The real factor, for me, is damage. It's okay if a mouse hits an elephant five times for ever one hit the elephant scores if the mouse is inflicting 3 or 5 levels of damage instead of 20 each hit. If the elephant scores 20 on his hit, that makes up for the 20 the mouse scores on his combined 5 attacks (theoretically at least).

      In order to fix this, I'd suggest altering how damage is configured and taken. First of all, I would subtract all armor bonuses BEFORE the multiplier is applied. So if a mouse scores 8 successes on his attack with a 2 damage level weapon and the elephant does not parry it, the elephant would subtract both his natural body armor of 4 and his chitin armor of 4 before the multiplier was applied. So in this case, the elephant would take 2 levels of damage (10 - 8 = 2) multiplied by the success multiplier of 4 for a total of 8 levels of damage.

      Now this is still a lot of damage, but the mouse scored 8 successes and the elephant scored none to defend (in most cases, this sort of attack would result in grievous injury to the defender). If this was still too much damage, I'd remove the multiplier altogether and simply count successes that got through (plus the weapon/Str) damage as the levels of damage the mouse scored against the elephant.

      Consider that if the elephant had scored that same number of successes (8) with his 12 damage weapon against the mouse, and the mouse had scored no successes, and could only subtract his 2 points of leather armor, then the mouse would take 18 levels of damage multiplied by 4 (for the levels of success) he would score a whopping 72 levels of damage! Bye bye mouse.

      I encourage people to play with the rules and adjust them as they see fit for their personal style of gaming. Some people like long combats, some like short and brutal, some prefer somewhere in-between. The Shard System is designed to be flexible to (hopefully) accommodate all these styles of play.

      -Aaron
    • I dont think that any quick twig-armed weakling or slow and absolutely cumbersome strongman can ever be a really efficient warrior:
      It is the balance of all combat related characteristics and skill that creates an efficient, quick responding, hard hitting killing machine.

      No one is perfect, and everyone brings their own strengths and strategies to cover for their weaknesses on the field.

      The mouse is quick and the elephant is strong.
      Subsequently, the elephant will run out of combat actions earlier than the mouse, giving a chance to attack.
      While the mouse has a lot of chances to hit the elephant, it should not be able to deal exorbitant ammounts of damage, but have to slowly wear it down with well timed and placed attacks. At the same time the elephant struggles to hit the mouse... knowing that only a few hits will take it down for good.

      So I think it really boils down to the damage multiplier, which allows the mouse to potentially deal multitudes of the damage it should generally be able to deal.

      I like the idea of subtracting the armor before multiplying...

      Maybe there could be another method to reward good dice rolls such as giving the attack effects, loading up some sort of special ability, decreasing enemy morale...?
      Or maybe Magic & Martial Arts will fix all this anyhow? x3

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sherbie ().

    • These are all great discussion points and observations, and as Aaron said, you should certainly tailor the rules to suit the type, speed, and deadliness of your combats to the particular tastes of your group...

      Also, ReaperWolf, allow me to say a big thanks for your excellent compliments and praise for our game, and your enjoyment of it... It's really great to see folks passionate about the world and the system, even when that passion includes critiques and recommended changes for the sake of individual's campaigns if some rule or another seems "out of whack"...

      Here's my own comments pertaining to some of the specific questions that ReaperWolf asked which may not have been addressed by either Aaron or Sherbie...:

      The book says nothing about Acrobatics taking an action and if it costs nothing in terms of Combat Actions so I'd wager every character in Shard will have a high Acrobatics otherwise they'll be dead in one round. I'd suggest Acrobatics being a complimentary skill which would cost an action like any other skill in combat.

      As stated on page 221 of the Basic Compendium in the Acrobatics portion (beginning of the second paragraph in that portion) of the Skills in Combat section, "Characters with this Skill may roll it at any time during a Combat Round, providing they have a Combat Action available."...which indicates the use of that Combat Action to enact the Skill... Definitely check out that section of the rules to get a better idea of how that Acrobatics works... You'd actually be surprised how few of the players in my game actually use that Skill, and yet seem to have no problem staying alive during combat, what with their carefully planned attacks and approach, as well as their occasional use of Story Points... But it is considered an "Enhancement Skill", one of three, in fact (the three being Acrobatics, Duel Dancing, and Fast Draw), that help boost the effects of defense (as in the case of Acrobatics), attacks, or weapon use...

      Which reminds me, Shard armor is generally not worth the penalties owing to the low armor ratings versus the high damage outputs by mice, shrews, and cats. Yes suthra armor grants limited regeneration but you don't regenerate after you're dead.

      I'm not sure what penalties you are referring to here... The only penalties related to armor are what you may get by wearing too much of it...and those penalties don't apply to natural Zoic body armor... Armor, however, in most systems, is given far more protective value than it actually seems to have in real life, as can be seen in grisly detail among the accounts of the wounded laying on the field of battle after a conflict during, let's say, the middle ages... What we tried to do was make it a decent factor in combat, without it overwhelming damage so much that combat lasts forever merely because not enough damage is being done per hit... (believe me,...I've seen it happen in the days before we implemented the damage multipliers). The balance we've achieved is that armor helps a player often ignore smaller, incidental attacks and half-damage circumstances, and yet essentially has little value when a lucky player or NPC scores an astounding number of successes... Personally, that's the way I think it should be, and have been satisfied how that seems to play out in the games I've been running over the two campaigns where we've been utilizing these most recent rules...

      The high damage output by smaller Zoics only occurs when, and if, they are able to score high damage multipliers because they defeated an opponent's defense roll by four or more successes... It's wonderful when that happens, but it happens far less often than these discussions seem to indicate in general combat... High outputs of base damage happen for those characters who have high Strength, in general, especially if coupled with a decent Martial Arts or Melee ranking (which can be bought up above one's own Agility, just as levels of Combat Instinct can be bought up by those players whose characters have a low Dexterity/Agility, and are concerned that they won't have enough Combat Actions to deal with faster foes)... Despite whatever Agility limitations an Elephant character may have (which is really only a factor at higher power levels of play, where other smaller/faster Heroic characters may have an advantage of several ranks in Agility/Dexterity), if they are going to be playing a slower, more lumbering character like that, then they would be extremely foolish to hope to compete against such characters without buying up their combat Skills beyond their Characteristic Zoic Maxima, as well as other such equalizing Talents (like the Combat Instinct).

      The system favors fast and agile characters over strength and toughness. A quick and deft character will make mincemeat of a larger and tougher opponent just about every time because quick characters go first, always hit, are nearly untouchable, and ultimately deal more damage with smaller weapons than the bruisers wielding huge weapons.

      This combined with every combat skill also being tied to Dex and Agility characters with high strength but low-mediocre scores Dex/Agl scores are really going to suffer. Now I understand why elephants are afraid of mice. But seriously, this can be a problem with characters dealing 80+ points of damage long before a huge elephant with 30 Stamina can even take action.


      Hmnnn, that last thing you mentioned actually happens VERY rarely, and really isn't the issue it might seem like at first glance... Consider this: to do 80+ levels of damage would require a character with 12 Strength managing to get those 8 or 9 successes through his opponent's defense roll, thus causing them to also achieve a x4 damage multiplier... That Strength stat certainly can't apply to the mouse in that earlier example, nor does it apply to ANY average Heroic character or even most Legendary characters in an average combat situation...

      For the example of a High-end Heroic Elephant matched up against a high-end Heroic mouse,... that Elephant, with his Toughness, and perhaps a 9 Will plus a 10 Vigor would end up having a 57 Stamina...and the mouse would end up having merely a 34 Stamina (Lower Vigor maxima and no Toughness) and certainly wouldn't be able to dish out more than 5 levels of base damage, plus any penetrating successes (even at his highest Strength maxima), which would be 8 additional successes to get the x4 damage bonus..... So we're looking at about 52 levels of damage...

      Additionally, because of the way our combat system works, even such an amazing hit couldn't happen "long before" the huge elephant could react, even if that amazing attack were the first thing to happen, simply because the elephant would have the chance to defend against it instantly (assuming he chooses to defend at all), and if he has ANY Actions left what-so-ever he could choose to immediately React to that with an attack of his own in order of Initiative (along with any other players' Reactions to the mouse's attack)...

      Let me see if I can tease apart the important discussion points from one another... Firstly,...as Aaron mentioned, yes indeed, at least as far as Combat mechanics work in our game, high Agility and Dex are favored when it comes to how often you can attack, how fast you can attack, and how many dice you roll to attack,... whereas Strength, Will, and Vigor are favored when it comes to how much base damage you cause, and how much damage you can receive before being defeated, and how much armor you can wear on top of natural armor for additional damage soak...

      At first glance it would seem characters with higher Agility/Dexterity would have an advantage in this basic concept simply because, due to the damage multipliers that can also be achieved when rolling for successes, their high Agility/Dexterity would give them a better chance to dish out more damage as well... And in a heroic world that focuses on Martial Arts, that would seem to make some sense, since even popular film and literature often depict large, lumbering brutes endlessly falling to smaller and weaker, yet swifter and more agile foes...

      Everyone is generally OK with this unless they WANT to play a large and lumbering Elephant or Rhino Zoic because they seem cool, only to discover the limitations to their Agility that might make them less "powerful" of a warrior as a result of how our combat rules work... As Aaron and I mentioned above, we already have ways of balancing this apparent unfairness out within the game, without even having to alter the rules as they stand (buying up your combat skills beyond the racial maxima of the associated Characteristic, buying Combat Instinct, etc.). Wise players who want their lumbering giants to be able to go toe-to-toe with mouse or cat--sized versions of Bruce Lee better strongly consider doing these things... or run the risk of getting uber-slain,... just as that same Bruce Lee mouse better realize that if they roll a low number of Actions for that round, or happen to roll a poor defense against that same lumbering giant's attack, they may end up an instant pancake themselves! Believe me,...I've seen it happen BOTH ways in different circumstances... It all really comes down to how well you roll against the other guy,...and if you don't have a comparable set of dice to roll compared to your enemy, for whatever reason, and regardless of what Zoic you choose to play, you'd best think twice before charging in to attack them...

      (Continued In Next Post).....
    • We've all spent time talking about the extremes of circumstances such as a slow, lumbering elephant (which I'm assuming means that regardless of whether he's this huge Zoic or not, what we're saying is that his lower Agility means he's rolling less dice when generating Actions and attacking) fighting an obviously faster mouse (which what we're really, essentially saying is that, due to his high Agility, he's tossing around more dice when generating Actions and attacking)... Well,...of course that means there's a large chance that the tiny mouse might totally slaughter the huge elephant, regardless of his prodigious Strength... This would also apply to those same two characters even if they were two members of the exact same race and size...but still had the same differences in their dice pools for the same reasons...

      But if you took that same Elephant, though, and wisely added levels of Combat Instinct at some point during character development, then wisely bought up your Martial Arts and/or Evade skills (to help make up for your inherent weaknesses as a huge, slow Zoic), then you'd suddenly discover that the smaller, faster characters get far fewer successes through your defense when rolling against you (thus keeping the lucky damage multipliers that might hurt you to a minimum), and you'd suddenly find yourself succeeding more against them when rolling your comparable combat skills against theirs... Because of the Combat Instinct levels you'll also recognize that you are able to often have a reasonably decent number of Actions compared to theirs as well on average... At least the larger, slower characters have these options... There's really nothing that smaller, weaker characters can do to improve their base damage or Stamina, unless the player can convince the GM to let them have some kind of magical aid, or perhaps let them later do enough physical training to buy Toughness...

      Now,...these things will cost you Story Points, sure,...and you'll still suffer from losing initiative against faster characters fairly often (unless you are fighting weaker power-level foes and minions, or unless you can convince your GM to allow you to purchase Fast Reflexes for your slower Zoic due to some form of special martial training)...but that's just how these point-based systems work;...you give up some things to balance out others when trying to level the field of play against other opponents when they have skills and abilities you don't...

      Aaron mentioned:
      In order to fix this, I'd suggest altering how damage is configured and taken. First of all, I would subtract all armor bonuses BEFORE the multiplier is applied. So if a mouse scores 8 successes on his attack with a 2 damage level weapon and the elephant does not parry it, the elephant would subtract both his natural body armor of 4 and his chitin armor of 4 before the multiplier was applied. So in this case, the elephant would take 2 levels of damage (10 - 8 = 2) multiplied by the success multiplier of 4 for a total of 8 levels of damage.

      Now, I know Aaron likes to offer this method of handling the issue, but I don't, and for several reasons, first and foremost being that it appears to create an artificial advantage for the one wearing the armor that seems to come into effect specifically because their opponent rolled extremely well... Effectively,...you are quadrupling the amount of damage the defender's armor can "soak" against that attack, just because the attacker was lucky (or crafty) enough to achieve an astounding number of successes and earn an astounding damage multiplier of "x4"... I mean, why doesn't the armor soak up that much damage ALL the time, instead of only when the attacker rolls well?...

      The OTHER reason is that I don't employ this method in my games is that, if I were that mouse, and I just succeeded in rolling so well that EIGHT of my successes got through when I attacked (which means, again, that according to our rules I just achieved an ASTOUNDING success) then I would be totally pissed that all I caused was 8 levels of damage to my foe (I don't care what type of Zoic he is), especially if I was fighting an NPC, and especially if the elephant and I were supposed to be somewhat equally matched as far as our combat skills went...

      I look at it this way,... If I'm a high-end Heroic mouse, and that elephant is a Heroic elephant, and if we both have about 9 dice to throw around in combat, and if that Elephant, with his Toughness, and perhaps a 9 Will plus a 10 Vigor ended up having a 57 Stamina...and I ended up having merely a 34 Stamina (no Toughness)..... And if I were lucky enough to have rolled really, really well against my foe such that he runs out of Actions before I do, or if I was smart enough to work with my group to insure that after they depleted the foe's Actions I could rush in to deal a wonderfully deadly blow,... then armor or not I don't want my awesomely cinematic and heroic moment in the spotlight, as I potentially cause my enemy a maximum of 52 levels of damage (my 5 Strength max in damage plus the 8 from that 8 penetrating success hit, x 4) because of a badass roll I made, taken away from me because regardless of how well I rolled compared to my opponent's defense (or lack thereof) all he has to be is strong enough to wear loads of armor such that all my badass Martial Arts skill and lucky, amazing rolls (which, EIGHT penetrating successes certainly should count as) don't mean squat! That, my friend, is why folks leave games in disgust... I'm playing these games to be a hero, and to dish out some amazing damage if I happen to make an incredible roll (such as eight penetrating successes against my opponent)... If we choose to institute rules that turn such an amazing roll into an eight-damage-level "fart" that barely scratches the surface of an opponent's armor, and barely cuts into his prodigious Stamina, then I guarantee that will leave players highly dissatisfied... I know I'd be...

      Now,...if the rolls were reversed (the NPC got that lucky hit in on me instead), or perhaps I'm fighting another PC, then guess what,...I (or the other PC) has Story Points to potentially fall back upon (if they were wise and kept one or two on the side for emergencies)...

      I still haven't grasped the particulars of Bundled Actions as of yet but I'll give the section a re-read tomorrow AM. There's also the question of of the timing of one's actions. Are all actions declared and taken in order of initiative and any unused Defenses are simply lost? Or does each combatant take one action in order of their initiative until all combatants are out of actions. In this case Defenses are more or less used reactively.

      Bundled Actions really only come into play in the Basic Rules when it's your turn. in order of Initiative...which is when you are allowed to bundle multiple Actions together into one single roll so that they all happen, essentially simultaneously, before other characters have a chance to React to them... When it's NOT your turn, all you may do is React with a single Combat Action, also in order of Initiative,...thus not allowing you to Bundle until it gets around to being your turn... When it's your turn, and once you have used up all the Actions you wish to declare (either Bundled or not, with folks Reacting as allowed) your turn is then considered "over", at which point any remaining Actions are noted, and can be used as single-Action Reactions or Defenses by you for the rest of the Round...(though you may not use any remaining Actions to initiate a new multi-action "turn" for you). Once the entire Combat Round is over, any unused, remaining Combat Actions you have left simply "go away" and are wasted... It behooves you to use as many Actions as you dare, wisely, when it's your turn during a Round, while saving enough for potential later defense needs during that Round once your turn is through...

      As far as your suggestion goes (concerning the different way of having multiple Combat Actions without rolling them, and instead just having cumulative penalties for each additional attempted Action), you've actually hit upon a way we once tried doing combat for awhile (no rolled number of Actions, just cumulative minuses for each additional Action taken) and what we quickly discovered is that it made combat take forever, because the cumulative penalties cause people to either miss all the time with later shots or cause so little damage with later shots that no one ever got hurt enough fast enough... Add that to the fact players and GMs had to keep track of that penalty modifier on top of any other difficulty modifiers the players were dealing with, and we quickly realized it was MUCH easier just to keep track of remaining Actions... Additionally, it seemed to render the "more fun" harder combat maneuvers useless, either because you never seemed to have enough dice to try them, or because folks quickly realized that you always had to try those first (when you had enough dice), and so you were artificially limited to never be able to use them as a fun "surprise" later in the combat round... They always came, and were expected, as the first things that would happen in combat, instead of as a cool maneuver that you could "lead up" to for fun... In general, the players found the "cumulative negative" Combat Action modifier method to be unsatisfying to them when attempting to create a cool series of martial maneuvers sutured together, and made winning Initiative less fun for them...

      Anyway,...hopefully this provides more fodder for discussion, or otherwise helps folks decide what changes or alternate rules would be a good match for the games they are running for their own groups...

      Scottie ^^
    • What he said :)

      Scott and I have discussed this very point several times, as you can see. The trick is always in balancing one type of character (in this case the fast, speedy character) with another (the strong, tough character). And it is indeed tricky.

      The reason the rules ended up the way they did was because Scott championed (and wisely, I think) the smaller Zoics, insisting that they not be left out in the cold compared to the huge Zoics it would be possible to play. I think he was right. Most every player not familiar with the combat system will naturally assume that the huge elephant or rhino Zoics will be the obvious combat monsters, dealing out tons of damage and being able to absorb loads of damage and in general being unstoppable tanks. We did not want this to be the case.

      If you look at the source material we drew inspiration from (Hong Kong cinema), you'll see that speed and accuracy and skill are far more effective and deadly than simple brute strength or armor. That was a definite design choice. We wanted the guy who played the mouse Zoic to be unafraid to enter into combat with the huge elephant Zoic, because he would know that he could bring down his opponent as easily as he could be brought down. That can happen with the system as it currently plays, although, I will admit, that the Zoic with the higher Agility will have a slight advantage but that is counterbalanced somewhat by the armor factor.

      And remember that elephants can buy up their Combat Skills beyond their Agility and Dexterity scores. So even if the elephant had a 4 base Agility, and the mouse had an 8, they both might have 10 dice in Martial Arts (it just would have been more expensive for the elephant to get his skill to that ranking). They can both buy Combat Actions. But in the case of the elephant, he'd have natural body armor, could wear heavier armor, and would have Toughness, which will make him a tougher opponent. At that point, the mouse's only chance is to score more successes against him or else he's dead.

      That said, playing with damage multiples and when armor soaks damage will lower the damage output for all Zoics, but really only the smaller Zoics will feel it since the huge Zoics can still deal huge amounts of damage (see my example in the previous section).
    • Acrobatics takes an action? Great, I ran it as such at the demo even though I overlooked the reference in the Compendium. :D

      So bundled actions: Say I want to attack with my sword three times with my Melee skill of 9. I have two options:

      Three separate attacks each one a different roll of 9 action dice. This takes three actions, right?

      Bundle the three attacks on a single roll of 9 action dice. This take three actions but occur all at once, right?

      In the first option, the target rolls three separate defense rolls.

      In the second option, the target has no choice but to bundle three defenses into a single roll, correct? Bundling defenses in this case would cost 3 actions, right. Seems like bundling is a great time saver if actions are resolved in order of initiatives one at a time as I mention below.

      Assuming the defender rolled 3 defense on his three bundled defenses, throwing wedges with damage 3 become 9 (6 successes) multiplied by 3 for the great success times three attacks that's (9x3x3) or 81 damage. Of course I'd suspect since this is three separate weapons I'd reduce the damage by the target's armor three times before accessing damage. Right?

      Am I to assume the flow of action occurs one combat action at a time from highest initiative to the lowest so everybody gets to take their first action before anybody takes a second combat action and reactive defense actions rolls occur and are expended as needed?

      So if my Initiative is 10 and there are three enemy characters with 12, 9, and 6 the flow of action would be

      12 takes an action...
      10 I take an action...
      9 takes an action
      6 takes an action

      And then we go back through the initiatives expending actions until everybody is out, that correct?

      With regards to reactive defenses, which cost an action to execute, does this mean if I roll dodge on 10 after 12 rolls an attack against me, does this mean when it's my turn on 10 I have to pass because I burned a reaction to evade/dodge/parry/block when attacked on 12?

      Normally I'm not so fiddly about systems but there's a lot going on here and since I'm demoing the game for ya I'd just as soon stick as closely to the rules as written instead of introducing others to my houserules.

      >>ReaperWolf

      The post was edited 3 times, last by ReaperWolf ().

    • Let me see if I can clarify this a bit better for you...

      Let's say the player or NPC who wins first Initiative is called "Initiative 1" (with all following initiative winners being Initiative 2, Initiative 3, and finally, Initiative 4)... Since it's Initiative 1's turn first, he gets to decide what he wants to do first, and with how many Combat Actions. Let's say he ends up having 6 Combat Actions when he rolled for them and, as in your example, he wants to do three similar attacks to start off with. Just as you said, he could choose to perform these attacks in one of two ways, which I'll outline below... OR he could decide to hold his Turn until later in the round, at which point he could choose to "cut in" at any point he wishes, and begin taking his actions as outlined below using either of the two methods for his three chosen attacks...

      Method #1---Three separate single attacks, each one a different roll of 9 Action Dice:
      Here's the order of action---

      * Initiative 1 rolls his first attack (using 1 Combat Action) and decides to make his attack against Initiative 3. Let's say he is attacking with a weapon that causes 5 damage levels, and he rolls 8 successes.
      * Initiative 1's Target (Initiative 3) rolls his defense against the attack (using 1 Combat Action). Let's say he rolls only 2 successes to defend, and he has 4 levels of armor he's wearing, plus has 1 level of natural body armor. Let's also say that he is a fairly tough fellow with a Stamina of 42.
      * The defense roll of 2 leaves 6 successes that penetrate Initiative 3's defense attempt; an Excellent success (x 3 damage multiplier)! The 6 penetrating successes plus the 5 damage levels of the weapon equal 11 levels of damage, x 3 (for the damage multiplier) equals 33 levels of damage, minus the 5 total levels of armor, means that Initiative 3 ended up taking 28 levels of damage from that single, Excellent blow. Initiative 3 now has only 14 Stamina remaining, and is now at -2 dice to all his actions till healed, because he has been reduced to 1/3rd his Stamina. He must also make a Vigor roll (at -2) to see if he loses consciousness immediately due to losing 2/3rds of his Stamina in a single blow.
      * Once this attack is resolved, Initiative 2, then 3 then 4 may now React, one at a time, in order of Initiative (using a single Combat Action only) to what has just transpired in any way, if they so choose, or they may pass (using no Combat Actions). If their Reaction is an attack, their Target can make a Defense roll (using up a single Combat Action to do so).
      * Now that everyone else has had their chance to React to Initiative 1's first declared action (if they wish), and those who have been attacked have defended (if they wish), it's still considered Initiative 1's Turn until he chooses to stop declaring actions. At this point he can choose to continue with his individual attacks as planned, or he may now choose to Bundle several Actions together, if he's changed his mind.
      * If we assume he continues to take his remaining two individual attacks, each one follows the same order as described for the first one above, with each character or NPC having the chance to React with a single Combat Action only (using and Action to do so), and each attacked character having the chance to defend as necessary (using and Action to do so).
      * Once Initiative 1 has decided to stop declaring actions (or has run out), his Turn is over for that Round, and his remaining Combat Actions can only be used to defend (with as many Actions used as necessary) or to React (with only one Action used at a time). He no longer has the option of taking multiple actions at once, since it is not his Turn. It has now become Initiative 2's Turn.
      * Initiative 2 may choose to either make individual attacks as described above, or may choose to bundle attacks, as described in the next example.
      * Once Initiative 2 makes his single or bundled attack, Initiative 1 may now React (using a single Combat Action only, if he has any remaining) to what has just transpired in any way, if he so chooses, or he may pass (using no Combat Actions). If that Reaction is an attack, their Target can make a Defense roll (using up a single Combat Action to do so). Then Initiative 3 (the next in order of Initiative, gets to React as well, followed by Initiative 4, just as outlined above.
      * This continues until all players have declared and performed all their actions, and the last player's Turn, in order of Initiative, comes to an end. At this point the Round is considered over, and Combat Actions are lost if they have not been either spent during a player's Turn, spent while performing Reactions, or spent while rolling Defenses.


      Method #2---Bundle the three attacks on a single roll of 9 Action Dice.
      Here's the order of action---

      * Initiative 1 rolls his bundled attacks (using 3 Combat Actions, but making only one roll of his Action Dice) and decides to make his attacks against Initiative 3. As in the first example, he is attacking with a weapon that causes 5 damage levels, and he rolls 8 successes.
      * Initiative 1's Target (Initiative 3) rolls his defense against the attacks (using 3 Combat Actions to do so). As before, let's say he rolls only 2 successes to defend, and he has 4 levels of armor he's wearing, plus has 1 level of natural body armor. Once again, he is a fairly tough fellow with a Stamina of 42.
      * The defense roll of 2 leaves 6 successes that penetrate Initiative 3's defense attempt; once again an Excellent success (x 3 damage multiplier)! The 6 penetrating successes plus the 5 damage levels of the weapon equal 11 levels of damage, x 3 (for the damage multiplier) equals 33 levels of damage, minus the 5 total levels of armor, creates a total of 28 damage levels for each of the three attacks. Since that was three attacks bundled together, and the failed defense roll means he failed to defend against all three, this means that we multiply the final damage we just calculated by three, which means that Initiative 3 ended up taking 84 levels of damage from that successful bundle of three Excellent blows! Initiative 3 has been instantly defeated (killed if the damage was mostly Lethal, and merely knocked unconscious if the damage was mostly Subdue), having effectively been reduced to -42 Stamina. If Initiative 3 is a PC, his player should strongly consider using a Story Point to have the GM alter that moment in some way (GM's choice) so that the terrible series of blows doesn't go through! If Initiative 3 was an NPC,...oops,...bye-bye NPC...
      * Once the outcome of all three Bundled attacks is resolved, Initiative 2, then 3 (if he's still able), then 4 may now React, one at a time, in order of Initiative (using a single Combat Action only) to what has just transpired in any way, if they so choose, or they may pass (using no Combat Actions). If their Reaction is an attack, their Target can make a Defense roll (using up a single Combat Action to do so).
      * Now that everyone else has had their chance to React to Initiative 1's bundled actions (if they wish), and those who have been attacked have defended (if they wish), it's still considered Initiative 1's Turn until he chooses to stop declaring actions. At this point he can choose to save the rest of his Combat Actions as planned (thus choosing to end his Turn), or he may now choose to declare yet another action (or bundled actions), if he's changed his mind.
      * If he changes his plan, and decides to continue to make attacks, they are taken as described in the examples above, with each character or NPC having the chance to React with a single Combat Action only (using and Action to do so), and each attacked character having the chance to defend as necessary (using and Action to do so).
      * Once Initiative 1 has decided to stop declaring actions (or has run out), his Turn is over for that Round, and his remaining Combat Actions can only be used to defend (with as many Actions used as necessary) or to React (with only one Action used at a time). He no longer has the option of taking multiple actions at once, since it is not his Turn. It has now become Initiative 2's Turn.
      * Initiative 2 may choose to either make individual attacks, or may choose to bundle attacks, as described above.
      * Once Initiative 2 makes his single or bundled attack, Initiative 1 may now React (using a single Combat Action only, if he has any remaining) to what has just transpired in any way, if he so chooses, or he may pass (using no Combat Actions). If that Reaction is an attack, their Target can make a Defense roll (using up a single Combat Action to do so). Then Initiative 3 (the next in order of Initiative, if he's still alive and conscious, gets to React as well, followed by Initiative 4, just as outlined above.
      * This continues until all players have declared and performed all their actions, and the last player's Turn, in order of Initiative, comes to an end. At this point the Round is considered over, and Combat Actions are lost if they have not been either spent during a player's Turn, spent while performing Reactions, or spent while rolling Defenses.


      The main thing to remember is, only when it is officially your Turn may you choose to take more than one action at a time using multiple Combat Actions as bundles (unless you are defending yourself from multiple attacks). When it's not your actual Turn, then you may only React in order of Initiative, using one Combat Action at a time.

      Bundling actions has the benefit of having all the actions in the bundle "going off" at once, potentially defeating your enemy before they have a chance even to React (though they may, of course, defend, assuming they have enough Actions to do so).

      Hopefully this helps clarify things for you!

      Scottie ^^
    • Oh! Heh!

      Actually, no. I've never realy been a big fan of them, myself... (I'm not sure why, honestly...I've just never been able to get into them)...and I don't think Aaron is either...

      My main desire with our action/reaction-based system was to insure that nobody ever felt like they were totally "frozen" or "stuck" while waiting for their turn; a feeling that many systems I've played can sometimes cause...

      There will always be some element of waiting in almost any game's combat system, but seeking a way to minimize that feeling has always been our goal...

      Scottie ^^
    • Lethal Combat

      I've only had one really lethal combat incident. I had one enemy absolutely flub his attack against a decent attack score.

      The player combined their actions and scored well and the bad guy combined his roll and completely botched that roll. The NPC would've died anyway so I told the player that it looked like the bad guy was going to dodge and must have moved wrong and got his head chopped off
      "One without crystal is without life"