I actually agree with this, and this came up when we were redoing chargen with Scott there.

I feel like it should go:

Caste -> Profession -> Animal Template -> Characteristics -> Animal Abilities -> Skills -> Advantages -> Drawbacks.

And actually, since your profession affects your skills, I can actually see:

Animal Template -> Characteristics -> Animal Abilities -> Caste -> Profession -> Skills -> Advantages -> Drawbacks.

Professions and Skills should be tied together, since the first flows into the second.

As it is you pick your caste, but don't really 'pay' for it until much later. And you pick a profession, but you're left waiting to actually pick/increase skills until much later.

With that said .. character generation is already really complex and finely balanced and requires that you follow it step by step and (as if this sentence couldn't go on longer) pretty much requires (or is most successful) when you are going through it with someone that knows how it works. Changing the order would run the serious risk of making an already complex system more complicated and prone to breakage. There already is a warning in the caste portion of chargen about paying for it in step #7, so even though it's really awkward it may be better to keep it the way it is.

Well,..Caste is purchased as an Advantage because it IS an Advantage in all respects; what it represents conceptually, how it can affect the rules, how it may be used by the players in the game,...etc... BUT,..I agree with you that it is one thing, currently, that seems immediately awkward concerning character creation, and I'm trying to figure out an elegant solution that DOESN'T remove it from its accurate place as an Advantage. Here are the palatable options, as I see them:

1. Have the player pay Ability Points for their Caste as a separate sub-step while purchasing their Profession (i.e. have them look at the caste required for their profession, and see the 1-4 cost, as well as the "value" of 1 that cost gets you, that they must now pay in addition to their Profession cost), thus negating that number of their points initially from the total they have to spend, but referring to this purchase later in the Advantages step. (This seems clunky to me)
   
2. Have the cost of their Caste that they must have for their Profession INCLUDED in the cost for their Profession, but telling the player to write down that Caste (and its starting value of 1) now on their sheet, with the understanding that they may modify this value later when they get to the Advantages step. (This makes the most sense, and seems less likely to cause confusion, especially since this same paradigm is used later for Talents and other abilities that come with the Animal Templates)
   
3. Tell the player to write down their Caste, based on the Profession they have chosen to purchase, and "set aside" the number of points they will later need to spend in order to purchase it when they get to the Advantages step. (Essentially what we did the other day, which I found a bit clunky as well)
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   How do you guys feel about this? Personally,..I think option number 2 makes the most sense, as long as Caste, as an Advantage, is still more thoroughly explained once you get to the Advantages step later in the rules.
   
   Scottie

Actually, I'd just fold it into the cost of the Profession. The other options are awkward (even writing it down with a value of 1 - this is going to lead to confusion as people think they are paying for it twice). I know you feel strongly about it being an advantage, but honestly I think it'd fit better just folded in with your profession if you aren't going to pay for it separately in the same step.

Originally posted by betafu
Actually, I'd just fold it into the cost of the Profession. The other options are awkward (even writing it down with a value of 1 - this is going to lead to confusion as people think they are paying for it twice).

They shouldn't think this unless they will ALSO be confused by the fact that similar things are included in their Animal Template, which they also must write down, then change as desired later in a future step (concerning Talents, Drawbacks, and Animal Abilities). Additionally, the rewrite I'm doing on all of this will clarify the fact that anything written down that had been included in a previous step has already been paid for, and can now be "bought up" (once they get to the later step) as desired.

Originally posted by betafu
I know you feel strongly about it being an advantage, but honestly I think it'd fit better just folded in with your profession if you aren't going to pay for it separately in the same step.

Well,...it's not that I feel strongly about it being an Advantage,..it IS an Advantage,..and must be used in the game later AS an Advantage. It's is not a "fire and forget" kind of purchase. It MUST be listed as an Advantage, like any other, because it is meant to fulfill the same kinds of purposes as other Advantages in the game later, not just as an additional hurtle you must jump across to be a certain profession during character creation.

That being said,...as I mentioned earlier,..I see no problem folding it into the full cost of the Profession, as long as what you get with that (in addition to Skills, whose values you calculate in a later step), is the appropriate Caste Advantage with a starting value of 1. This is JUST like what happens when you buy the Animal Template,....you pay your cost,..and then you write down (on your character sheet) the appropriate Talents/Animal Abilities/Drawbacks that come WITH that purchase, at the value listed for them on the Template.

I am right in the middle of rewriting the Character Creation Chapter,..including the "Quick Reference Guide" for that chapter,..and have found that it seemed to make the process flow fairly smoothly for my group,..even those who have never played this game before,..and I think I may have made alot of improvements to even that great initial pass at it that Joe Fontenot made. It really seems to clarify the process by giving very specific directives that are easy to follow. by going through it step-by-step,..we were able to finish the creation of six characters, start to finish, in one sit-down session, including a several-hour dinner and two 15 minute breaks... (roughly 5 hours of actual game-time,..which INCLUDED the time that faster players waited for slower players to catch up before we moved on to the next step).. I was pretty pleased with the results, and can't wait to upload this new "Quick Reference Guide" for your perusal....

Scottie

Certainly looking forward to reading the revised chapter. After finally getting my hands on the printed versions of the books I have been trying to create a character for the last week or so in my spare time. Even with using Joe's guide (which REALLY helps). I have restarted 3 times due to frustration.

From the above post that mentions order:

Animal Template -> Characteristics -> Animal Abilities -> Caste -> Profession -> Skills -> Advantages -> Drawbacks

I personally feel that something along these lines makes much more sense in what order it should come. I see it as broken into 3 chunks. The first 3 steps, Animal Template -> Characteristics -> Animal Abilities, define who you are outside of the social universe and are truly who you are before applying any of the social variances. I might actual put Characteristics first because; even before your animal type you have certain abilities you want higher or lower, but that would require some serious re-working of the animal templates and may not be worth the trouble.

Then it comes to who you are in Dardunah society, Caste -> Profession -> Skills, Choosing in this order really does make more sense as it again progresses from broadest placement through your individual proficiencies within your chosen profession. I do understand what Scott is saying about how Caste is an advantage and it works as one, but it also feels to be a more important advantage decision and doesn't necessarily belong in the same class with the rest. There is nothing to say it won't function exactly like one, but it may deserve its own separate category.

The finals steps, Advantages -> Drawbacks, are where you make yourself unique. There may be a 1,000 other lion warriors, with all of the same characteristics and skills, but here is where you put your personal stamp and style on him. It is simultaneously the least and most important step and fits perfectly being the last step you finish before entering into the world.

Overall I am enjoying reading the books and getting into the world, but I am finding the creation process somewhat frustrating. Without Joe’s guide I would have been VERY lost and may have given up by this point in doing it on my own without some outside guidance.

Originally posted by Sigerith
Certainly looking forward to reading the revised chapter. After finally getting my hands on the printed versions of the books I have been trying to create a character for the last week or so in my spare time. Even with using Joe's guide (which REALLY helps). I have restarted 3 times due to frustration.

.............

Overall I am enjoying reading the books and getting into the world, but I am finding the creation process somewhat frustrating. Without Joe’s guide I would have been VERY lost and may have given up by this point in doing it on my own without some outside guidance.

Yep,..Character Creation is indeed (second only, perhaps, to Combat) the hardest thing to get right concerning the rules...which is why I'm working so hard to redesign the way they are presented using some of Joe's ideas and concerns as an example... As soon as I get done I'll send it out for you all to scrutinize.

Also, Sigerith..check out the additional thread you created concerning your own attempts, and see that I've responded as best I can to most of your concerns and questions (though perhaps not as satisfactorily as you may have wished ^_^)...

Thanks again for your great input.... Outlining your process as you did has made clearer to me the things I need to touch up in this next revision...

Scottie

O.K. for the sake of "cleanup" on the forum, consider this matter resolved by the recently changed Character Creation chapter, available for download on this site.

I shall now lock this Thread, so no more posting on it is possible. If there are further issues concerning this particular item, feel free to start a new Thread.

Scottie