Pinned "Starting Items" for Characters

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    • "Starting Items" for Characters

      Hey guys,..as I am nearly at the end of re-creating the Character Creation Chapter for the Basic Compendium, basing all my changes on the responses and suggestions taken from the various different groups that have started up,...I wanted to get some last minute input from everyone, specifically concerning the desires expressed by Joe Fontenot's group about possessions and other starting items for newly created characters.

      The last section of Step# 14 (the final step in Character Creation) has this to say about filling out the sheet with starting items and possessions:
      "And finally, on another sheet of paper perhaps, or in an unused section of your character sheet, you should start to list the things that your character may own. The items, equipment, and tools-of-the-trade they may have at their disposal. Where does your character reside? And what items mean the most to them? Do they own property? Do they have wealth? Are there servants that care for their needs? Or do they, themselves, see to the things they must buy, keep, and care for?"


      Since writing that, I have created a separate Dárdünah Item List (see Downloads) that I encourage players to use to keep track of their stuff.. And I’m also considering a simple way to give all players a small amount of “starting” dalán (money) of their very own (by multiplying their Caste Advantage value by their Wit value). But obviously there might be a more concise way to suggest what beginning possessions newly-created characters might have at the start of a game, without resorting to a multi-page listing of items for every single one of the 120 professions that can be chosen from. I mean,..PLEASE tell me that I don't have to create a detailed starting item list for EACH Character Archetype!

      Is there a way that you guys could suggest I handle this issue without it becoming overly complicated? I suppose I could create a shorter list of associated items for each Skill, which means your starting item list would be different depending on what Skills your character possesses,..but there’s even more Skills than there are professions!

      Here's the things to consider:
      • There will be different possessions depending on what profession(s) you are..
      • Though there are professional similarities between one Caste and the next, being a different Caste means having differences between the quantity and perhaps value of the same resources. For instance, a suthra trainer in a peasant village would certainly have different starting items than a suthra trainer in the House of a noble lord....
      • The same profession in one country (such as in a tropical rainforest) , might have different starting items compared to that of another country (covered by mainly desert, for instance)......


      This level of complexity was something that caused me to initially leave it up to the GM and to each player to be inventive, creative, and studiously imaginative enough to come up with their own cool lists of potential starting items (meaning that doing a bit of research concerning the ancient or old-world ways of pursuing those professions should give any player the inspiration they need to create their own item list, subject to GM approval, of course). But I also want to provide, for the players and GMs, at least SOME indication of the types of things their players may have....

      Any suggestions?
    • RE: "Starting Items" for Characters

      Scott
      > The depth for this last phase of Charatcer creation
      > that you are contemplating is too complex. I feel
      > that just a suggestion of what each level, status
      > and profession of a character is all thats needed.
      > The details of each character should be left up to
      > the GM and the players. I also feel that the Basic
      > Rule Book should state very clearly, that a player
      > should read the rules very carefully, so they can
      > decide what they feel their character objective and
      > direction is best suited for their taste. A well
      > thought out character is the responsibilty of the
      > player, the GM can help to mold it to better suite
      > his adventure.
      > I hope this is helpful.
      > Fox
      >
    • RE: "Starting Items" for Characters

      I tend to agree with you, Richard,..and being too complex about it is honestly what I'd love to avoid.

      I just spoke with Ghorum (Eric), and he and I jabbered about several other important things I should mention in this section (Step #14, the final section of Character Creation), such as a reminder that certain possessions that would prove to be a tremendous advantage to a particular character would need to be bought as an actual Advantage known as a Resource (such as a flying mount, a skyship, a special magic-enhancing crystal, etc.).

      Additionally, he felt I should mention that, even though you may start out with some dalan (money) in your character's pocket, doesn't mean that you should go out and immediately purchase more items with it. Acquiring wealth and money in the Dardunah game is never meant to be a driving goal, and in fact, should be as underplayed as possible. The spirit of excitement and adventure should not have, at its core, the need to "get more money" so that your character can go "buy more stuff". The actual dalan cost of particularly expensive or important possessions should be utterly overshadowed by the fact that there needs to be a real purpose in the game/storyline for getting such an item, and such an acquisition should go hand-in-hand with the expending of Story Points for it to become an Advantage for that character. If haggling over the cost of such an item with a merchant or criminal in the game should lead to some interesting development or twist in the plot and story, then by all means come up with some reasonable terms for determining the values being bandied about "in character", but otherwise, it's always best to skip over such boring parts and move on to the action and fun!

      The profession one chooses to occupy in the game, likewise, should only be the launching point for a set of interesting skills and circumstances that lead to adventure. Though you may, in fact, choose to be a doctor in the game, your game-play should, by no means, be spent in continuous day in and day out trips to your office or shop to dispense throat ailment teas and toe-fungus elixers. If you and your friends start the game as outcast beggars, you should NOT spend all your precious game-hours begging in the streets for spare crystal coins. How boring and dull! These are things done by people who spend their time worrying about how much money they need to survive on a day-to-day basis. This is not the stuff of adventures! This is not the reason why people should play Dardunah!

      Likewise, there should be less focus on personal possessions unless there is a specific reason you should need those things to drive some fun element in the storyline or campaign. Of course you would want things that, not only seem appropriate to your profession, but ALSO might be useful in situations of fun role-playing or adventuresome antics! Money should be treated in the same way. Certainly, if spending money is something that can add fun to the progression of the story, then feel free to ask the GM to tell you what type of stipend you receive monthly from your Lord's chamberlain, or how many dalan you snatch from the purse of a fat merchant, or the profit from a particularly successful batch of pottery, etc. But never let such industry get in the way of the story itself. If it's more fun to assume that the players have enough on them to visit an expensive gambling den for a night of revelry, then don't blink an eye over them winning hundreds of dalan throughout the evening, or merely saying "I pay the fellow..." when it's time to leave. Of course, it might just be equally as fun for a poor rogue to sheepishly admit that he has NO money to pay, and then get dramaticaly chased down a dark alley by hired thugs intent on retribution!

      On a final note, though,..I did agree with Eric that he and I will BOTH be thinking about listing, perhaps, suggestions for the common professional paradigms on Dardunah that might have certain things in common concerning the types of possessions they might start with in the game. For instance, most priests, regardless of Caste, might have a basicly similar set of personal belongings that could be listed. Likewise, healers anywhere might also have certain things at their disposal to start with, and sir'hibasi would all use similar objects in the practice of their craft. Woodworkers, whether they are shiprights, barrelmakers, or furniture-crafters, might all have sets of tools in common, and artists who work in paint and ink, regardless of what they produce, would certainly use many of the same supplies and impliments.

      If he and I can come up with a VERY limited set of Professional Possession Paradigms, let's say 12 to 24,..then I don't mind providing a list of suggestions for some basic staring possessions..."common tools-of-the-trade", if you will... Fleshing out this list fully I will leave entirely up to the ruling of the GM and the creativity of the player. After all, it IS their character,...thus it is their responsibility to do a little fun research concerning the profession they have chosen for themselves. With the use of just a little time over the weekend, any number of juicy tidbits can be found on the internet that will greatly enrich your gaming experience, and give you plenty to refer to when role-playing your character. After all, the cultures of Dardunah are based on a rich tapestry of traditions on earth, all of which can be researched and studied quite easily, from India, to Persia, to ancient China, any of which could provide endless resources for fleshing out your character. And for cultural paradigms that are native to Dardunah alone, the best thing you could do would be to immerse yourself in the fiction contained in the World Guide, which illustrates fairly well the many unique details pertaining to the various aspects of daily Darduni life.

      Scottie ^^
    • I think the thing to remember here is that in the game should be flexible - that is to say that it should allow those GMs and players that want a more amorpheous situation to have that, but should also offer a solution for those GMs and players that want more structure and an expectation of what their characters should have.

      My suggestion would be to have an optional rule (like you suggested Scott) to create a set of starting funds and a simple list of common items for each caste. I know that it can vary dramatically but you should be able to accomplish something with broad strokes.
    • Well,..I'm not sure about a set of common items for each Caste (since each Caste contains many dozens of completely different professions),..but If I can get my mind around, perhaps, a few dozen different over-arching professional categories (regardless of Caste) that may have a small suggestion of items in common, then I may choose to include them, as long as there's no more than a few dozen, otherwise it'll become too complex. These lists would be nothing but suggestions at the most, given in general terms, and what I worry is that many would find that such broad strokes might seem ridiculously obvious when they're finally written out. What I DON'T want to encourage is the "12 iron spikes, 1 week's rations, thieves tools, five torches, and 50' of rope" syndrome found in most gaming systems. I find this cheesy and tedious,..and wish to avoid it at all costs. In fact, item materialism and wealth-auditing in the game should take a back seat to story progression. I would MUCH rather see players encouraged to be creative and studious on their own terms, under the careful gaze of a GM.

      I'm waiting for everybody to check out what I've done so far on that last Step (#14) in the downloadable Character Creation I just finished,..and see if you all honestly think there needs to be suggestive lists at all. In those writings I indicate several examples of the kinds of things players should think about for their character's items, and I'm hoping most find it satisfactory. What I don't want is to hand a dumbed-down list to players,...a list that could merely mimmick what someone else might have sitting next to them because they happen to fit in the same general category, just for the sake of sparing a player what could be a potentially stimulating act of research and creativity concerning the profession they have decided to play,..the gaining of general knowledge that may spark cool ideas that could very well help them define the nature of how they will be role-playing their character.

      I'm also waiting to see if there are any suggentions from anyone concerning what these "broad stroke" categories might be, and what sort of item suggestions it might contain.... Let's see some examples, people, so I can understand what it is you guys (who think such lists would be a good idea) might want to see...

      Scottie ^^
    • NOTE: Caleb and Joe are both out of town until next week and I'm not sure about Kendra's Internet access, as of late her home connection has been down. I don't know about Faith or Kristin, I know Faith was having issues getting logged in.

      I just finished reading the absolute last few pages of the new chapter - I'll try to read the rest today if I can but I wanted to hone in on the materialism/equipment stuff to reply to your question.

      First off, this sentence:

      "For the purposes of the dalán (crystal coins worth about $5.00) that they may have on hand or in the purse at the start of the game, a simple way to calculate it would be to take the value of their Caste Advantage and multiply it by their Wit score."

      Is incredibly hard to read. I'd suggest something like:

      "For those that wish a more concrete number to represent the 'cash on hand' at the end of character generation or throughout the game one suggestion might be:"

      As for the rest ... well.

      Keep in mind here that the sort of game that you (Scott) like to run is pretty much polar opposite of the game I like to run. Generally I don't want to have to do research for my character. I want hard numbers. I want concrete expectations. I don't want any vagueness at all if I can help it. I'm going to try to set those prejudices aside to give my honest opinion of the paragraphs on p.120 and p.121 of the PDF.


      It's preachy. It's preachy and it reads like a game-master who's had one too many players in their game that tried to take advantage of them and tried to play a game focused on material wealth while you, as the GM, tried to run a game focusing on the opposite. Not only is it preachy, it's a bit high minded - suggesting that players and GMs that like games focusing on wealth and loot and equipment are missing the point. Granted, your vision of Dardunah may not be the way, but my understanding of these rules is that they are designed to be a semi-loose conglomerate of guidelines that GMs and players can take to run as they like - in their homes and offices, making little changes here and there to suit their new worlds.

      If that's your vision, that entire last two pages or so is bad. Very very bad. It shows your leanings a little too much and it doesn't fit into what I described above.

      Granted, I have my own prejudices here. But I think the larger question here is 'What do you want'? As the primary author and driving force behind this game if you want the game to be as I described above - flexible and adaptable depending on individual GM and player taste - then you should yank that whole rant - and unfortunately, that's what it reads like, a rant. If you want Dardunah run a certain way and there is absolutely no flexibility in that, then this section makes sense. In Dardunah as you envision it and want it run there is no focus on wealth, equipment is hand-waved and great research into minute details of your character and their skills is encouraged and rewarded.

      However ... keep in mind this. What I would suggest is that fundamentally, the game will succeed more as a flexible system that does not reflect your personal bias (or feeling) as opposed to a game that does.

      Humbly yours,
      Matt

      (Much love Scott. I know this may be harsh, but I felt like you needed to hear it. You're still welcome to come over to my place for the next game.)
    • Hmnnn,..good call on the whole "dalan" wording,..that sentence bothered me too.... let me reconsider how I want to word that..

      (Time passes)..... O.K!! Here's how I reworded it, and changed the text of the document..."
      For the purposes of generating a number to represent money they may have at hand or in their purse at the start of the game, a simple way to calculate it would be to take the value of their Caste Advantage and multiply it by their Wit score. This would generate a small number of dalán (crystal coins worth about $5.00 or so). A method like this could also be used to extrapolate a daily, weekly, or monthly stipend for their character (if deemed appropriate or necessary by the GM).

      As far as the thought concerning Materialism in the game....

      You said:
      Granted, I have my own prejudices here. But I think the larger question here is 'What do you want'? As the primary author and driving force behind this game if you want the game to be as I described above - flexible and adaptable depending on individual GM and player taste - then you should yank that whole rant - and unfortunately, that's what it reads like, a rant. If you want Dardunah run a certain way and there is absolutely no flexibility in that, then this section makes sense.

      What you seem to indicate above is that "flexible and adaptable" should mean including rules that support game-incentive to gain money that players need to count and keep track of, and possessions that need to be carefully listed and inventoried. This I actually disagree with,..and in the spirit of introducing a game that DOES NOT support doing such things, in lieu of focussing on the story itself,...I feel it IS possible to have a flexible and adaptable game WITHOUT actually providing additional rules to support a specific game-play style such as this one. That is not to say that my rules will try to STOP you from having "dungeon-crawl"-like treasure hunts, where the purpose is to accumulate wealth and cool items, or to have the game focus (as in being raiding pirates or corsairs) on the bounty of a game mission. My current intention is merely not having the game provide support for that kind of game-play,...because I do strongly feel that this is NOT what Dardunah is all about.

      In Dardunah as you envision it and want it run there is no focus on wealth, equipment is hand-waved and great research into minute details of your character and their skills is encouraged and rewarded.

      Well,..again,..it's not that there should be NO focus on wealth, or that equipment is hand-waved.... It's that (as I quote from the current document) "acquiring wealth and money in the Dárdünah game is never meant to be a driving goal, and in fact, should be as underplayed as possible. The spirit of excitement and adventure should not have, at its core, the need to “get more money” so that your character can go “buy more stuff" and that "there should be less focus on personal possessions unless there is a specific reason you should need those things to drive some fun element in the storyline or campaign."

      And it's not that I invision that "great research into minute details of your character and their skills" should be encouraged and rewarded, as much as (again, I quote) "Being creative and inventive in the game is what Dárdünah is all about, and taking the time to research and understand the interesting details pertaining to your chosen profession, and the unique items it employs, will greatly enrich your playing experience and may even provide a chance at additional role-playing bonuses awarded by an appreciative GM.." Please note that I say "research" not "great research",..and "interesting details" not "minute details"... A little research WILL enhance your experience when playing a character, and considering interesting items they may have. And I DON'T think you should waste time looking into minute details,..just pick out the interesting ones that would inspire cool role-playing moments or opportunities.

      This may seem preachy to those who strongly feel that they have no interest in this type of play-style,...but it is, in fact, what I do want Dardunah (and its rules) to inspire and encourage. I WOULD, however, like to make it SOUND less "preachy",..without changing the meaning of what I intend.. Which statements had too much of a preachy edge to them? Which particular sentences could be reworded to sound less like an admonishment, without altering their meaning, do you think?

      Matt concluded with:
      (Much love Scott. I know this may be harsh, but I felt like you needed to hear it. You're still welcome to come over to my place for the next game.)


      Ha ha! Worry not,..I didn't find it "harsh" at all! In fact,..I'm most interested to see how others reply to this, because the comments contained within those sections come primarily from personal feedback by various other playtesters both here, in my game, and abroad (the Hot Springs group).

      Ghorum,..? Have you any comments to add to this one? You were one of the chief inspirers concerning the thought behind this, AS WELL as one of those who were willing to consider possible options... What have you to say concerning the current last part of the Character Creation section?

      Scottie ^^
    • Having just read Step 14 in the Character Creation chapter, as well as, the various posts and replies, I feel it is necessary to point out that "flexible and adaptable" are the key words to the rules. A suggestion of a formula for starting coinage is a wonderful idea since every player since the dawn of time has always asked me how much money thay start with. The idea that money should not be a driving factor in the game does seem a bit extreme. I may be playing a trade caste merchant that thinks of money alone (3 point compulsion drawback, greed), or an individual that has heard about the lost fleet from the land of Asshammer that was said to have untold treasures and so therefore, I must find it. Wealth can and should be a goal in the realm of "Adventure". For some. That being said, it shouldn't be the only goal and stating rules to support one ideal or the other seems contrary to the idea of "flexible and adaptable". GM's should have the opportunity to create an adventure that is soley based on wealth acquisition. On the other hand, if they wish to avoid the topic at all costs, such as, an adventure based around indivduals where wealth is never a concern, i.e. noble houses on the verge of war or outcastes finding an infant child who will be the next messiah, then they should have that freedom as well. The thing I always enjoyed about Dardunah and its world is that you are limited by your imagination alone. Lets keep it that way and not pigeon-hole players into one aspect or the other.

      Concerning the topic of starting possessions...

      I find it much more rewarding to do a little more work and research in the creation process to come up with a fully realized character. A well thought out character is richer and more fun to play. So, the idea of reading a list of trappings that this or that profession has seems a bit limiting. On the other hand, some players prefer to be spoon-fed every tidbit of information pertaining to their character to make things easier for them so they can finish up the boring part of creation and get down to the nitty-gritty of playing the damned game. In the world of Dardunah there are so many professions availabe that even just the idea of creating a list of trappings for each is burdensome and tiring to the mind. In the end, I think it should be left to the players and the GM at the time of creation to come up with an acceptable list of starting goods and if there is a moment later in the game that a player feels they would have a certain thing they didn't think of during creation then the the GM will judge an appropriate method to determine if the player actually has it. It would be easily explained with a roll of the dice. Success, why look, you just happen to have a batch of freshly picked yaddaweed in you satchel. Failure, aww...fresh out.
      Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for lunch. Liberty is the sheep showing up with a gun.

      ~Benjamin Franklin~
    • Originally posted by Byrne Viktmn....The idea that money should not be a driving factor in the game does seem a bit extreme. I may be playing a trade caste merchant that thinks of money alone (3 point compulsion drawback, greed), or an individual that has heard about the lost fleet from the land of Asshammer that was said to have untold treasures and so therefore, I must find it. Wealth can and should be a goal in the realm of "Adventure". For some. That being said, it shouldn't be the only goal and stating rules to support one ideal or the other seems contrary to the idea of "flexible and adaptable". GM's should have the opportunity to create an adventure that is soley based on wealth acquisition. On the other hand, if they wish to avoid the topic at all costs, such as, an adventure based around indivduals where wealth is never a concern, i.e. noble houses on the verge of war or outcastes finding an infant child who will be the next messiah, then they should have that freedom as well. The thing I always enjoyed about Dardunah and its world is that you are limited by your imagination alone. Lets keep it that way and not pigeon-hole players into one aspect or the other.


      I tend to agree,..and because I think I may have given people the wrong idea when I said that the "aquisition of wealth in the game should never be the focus, and in fact should be underplayed".. What I'm NOT saying is that treasure-hunting scenarios are "bad"... In fact, adventure storylines, even in movies and books, that pertain to going on a wondrous treasure hunt, or pirates going after some rich haul, are VERY common,..and can be the source for many really cool and fun adventures in Dardunah.. My point is that the PLAYER shouldn't focus on the wealth itself,...the promise of riches should merely be the springboard in the game that vaults you into exciting circumstances.. Characters focusing on money in the context of a cool role-playing scenario is one thing (like your Greed Drawback example), but players focusing on the system or rule's mechanics of money and how to laboriously spend it in-game is another. Here's how I changed the wording in Step #14 to make that more clear:

      Even though you may start out with some dalán (money) in your character’s pocket doesn’t mean that you should go out and immediately purchase more items with it. Acquiring wealth and money for your characters in the Dárdünah game is seldom meant to be a driving goal for the players themselves, and in fact, should be as underplayed as possible. That’s not to say that many a mission couldn’t revolve around the daring deeds and mishaps required to find some ancient and forgotten treasure, but the fun of it would be getting there and winning the prize, not tediously managing the money afterward. The spirit of excitement and adventure should not have, at its core, the player’s need to “get more cash” so that your character can go “buy more stuff”.

      As far as your thoughts concerning starting possessions for characters,..I couldn't agree more. In fact,. Zoli (one of my players) stated that he generally assumed (and had written on his Item List) that he had such things as "mountain survival gear" or a "fire kit". What that might contain may vary between individual opinion, and he knew that, since his character was a hunter and trapper, if he thought of something particularly handy that might be a part of those kits, he would merely ask me if he had that thing when the time came that he figured it would be handy to use something like that. I can't count the number of times I've rolled randomly to determine whether a character had something on them when they needed it. Essentially, if it fit within the paradigm of the things it seemed likely they'd have (using common sense based on their desires and what they did for a living), and them having it might advance the story in a fun or exciting way,...then I'd let them make a Wit roll to see if they thought to bring it with them, ESPECIALLY if they put enough forethought into writing down something as simple as "cartography supplies" on their Item List... Easy enough!

      Scottie ^^
    • Whew!!! so many words, one right after the other, GAAAAAH! Ok,, one chunk at a time;

      First off, I will resist the nigh unbearable urge to pop off with "'fun' and 'research' should never, ever, under any circumstances be found next to each other in any sentence, in any language, anywhere, period", and merely point out that for some people (myself included) research is a flaming hoop of Constantine wire one occasionally must jump through before they may get on to having fun. Now whether you are the type that likes it, the type that doesn't, or the type that doesn't care one way or another matters very little. What bears weight is that it needs to be an unspoken option left to the discretion of the player, not something authorized by the manual, & possibly enforced by the GM.

      As for “preachy sounding, yeah, a lil’ bit, but not so much of a firebrand sermon as Betafu seems to intone (from my subjective interpretation of his post). It is my opinion that the breakdown of “Thoughts concerning materialism in the game” as a sub heading is disclaimer enough, but like I believe Betafu feels, I myself would rather have items & Dalan listed in a table (especially since tables are the fastest form of research) than left as an ambiguity. I am extremely confident that if such a thing is not included in the rulebooks, officially or unofficially, at some point, someone will make it into a supplement as there will be a great hungry outcry for it, so better to in the very least put it on the slate for an official in house supplement.

      Now, on a couple of occasions, Scott, you have expressed a general sense of apathy towards Mad-slashers, Montey-Haulers, Rules-Accountants, and Twinkies that may not purchase Dardunah because it doesn’t really cater to their playing style. I can appreciate this sentiment from an artistic/creative standpoint, and view it as an ‘ill-conceived notion’ from the biz end. When the day is done, it’s your baby & you gotta find the balance you can live with. I can only further urge you that if you should allow for these other ‘primitive’ (merely for generalization purposes) playing styles does not deter a more sophisticated gamer from recognizing the game for it’s fineness and making the purchase, but by not catering to some degree or another to the afore mentioned styles, you will in all probability not gain their patronage, and their money is just as green. I totally realize that is not your sole or even first purpose behind this effort, but it is a benefit that you deserve for your efforts in addition to the other gratification(s) you will receive upon completion. (that last should in no way be interpreted as any sort of lewd or indecent proposal upon my part)

      As for starting equipment, my philosophy is pretty much as Scott stated, but I would now put it in my words with a bit of my (ir)rational behind it.
      The main differences between Scott’s Dardunah game and any other RPG I have played ever is the greater level of what I can only describe as ‘flavory detail’ and ‘group socialism’. What’s important when I equip my character is the socialism part. Even when we ran the ‘pirate campaign’ it wasn’t so much about profit as it was about running our characters outside the ‘stupid laws’ and ‘social norms’ of the various ports of call. And with the exception of Taki Mahd’s incessant compulsion (which I should have taken as a disad, in retrospect) for acquiring Valah pistols with as many functioning barrels that could be amber ketteled onto them as possible, I purdy much barely touched my items list , tracked my shots on my character sheet next to the place where I listed all my weapons & proficiencies, and till near the end of the game where I started throwing monies at things like purchasing teahouses & donating to charities, I just kept adding dalan to my savings like I was marking the days off a calendar(wish I could do that in RL, sheesh!).

      This time I picked out a few items and weapons to personalize my character, then wrote down “kits” for the various craft skills I received or purchased since I was familiar with Scott’s game, realized there was no definitive list of stuff to buy in the foreseeable future, and had no reason to expect Scott to sweat me over bullshit. I basically figured the price of a couple of the important things to have in a kit of that profession, decided to multiply their perceived value(basing my knowledge of generalized value of modern world items = perceived value. I.e. a framing hammer will run you anywhere from $12 to $30 , depending on how sucky it is & how pretentious you are about your tool brand, & other such items) I multiplied it’s dalan value by 2, 3, 5, 10, or 20 (piece-of-shit, cheap, fare, good, or high quality… respectively) and figured anything else was included in the kit, then I either just ask Scott if I have something in my kit (which I stated to him at the beginning of the game that all my kits were of ‘good quality’) when I need it, or I figure out an unusual application for something that might be in my kit, ask Scott if I have one, and after he falls for my innocent question, I hit him with my outlandish designs that require it’s unorthodox implementation.

      As I said before, I don’t care too much for researching stuff, and prefer tables, barring that resource, I just wing it. If you add a list of items & their values in the book (and I really hope you do) I wouldn’t sweat it too much. My suggestion for this would be to scan in a few indexes from catalogues like Sears, Ikea, REI, etc, run the scans through an OCR soft, import it to a spread sheet, delete the stupid items that just would never be found in Dardunah (like bread machines & gameboys) then just divide the page numbers of the correlating shit by the NUMBER OF NUMBERS in the page number, round to the nearest whole number, tweak anything that sounds wrong (toothbrush 30 Dalan, paring knife 300 Dalan, drop zeros or divide some more by an arbitrary number, or pull a number right outta your ass with a dainty flourish of the wrist) & call it a friggin’ day. How’s THAT for spontaneous content?

      Lastly, I know you asked for suggestions about making the preachy stuff sound not preachy, it’s getting late so I’ll have some suggestions tomorrow or Sunday.

      Hope this is helpful
      I'd rather kiss Satha Vortoc on his sything death-hole

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ZClip ().

    • Okay here's my two cents:

      I side with the argument of player research.

      I know that may seem wierd as I am a monty hall, power-gamer, only out for personal glory and MORE POWER! But I have to advocate the two fold glory of player research.

      The first apsect of the "Two-Fold Glory" in its favor is that a player will learn things about their profession that unlike almost all other RPGs might actually come into use, gain them more story points, and add to the awesome flavor of the game. Dardunah actually rewards you for wasting time chit chatting instead of killing by instructing the DM to give you special story point additions for doing thiongs like adding to tjhe atmosphere and knowing your character well.

      The second aspect is that if the player does his own research into what a trade needs in terms of tools and props, then we don't have to waste dozens of pages with a list and them the explanations of what each of the items on the list are. Seriously, look at other game systems where they hand-feed you these item lists. JESUS CHRIST that takes up a lot of book real-estate that is better devoted to more useful information.

      ( I might advocate a small section devoted to articles that are found on dardunah but do not have earthly counterparts. And i also advocate a section that explains in detail (with some history about how they came to be) the wierd ass weapons in the weapon section of the rulebook. Those bizarre names mean nothing to me if I dont have a parenthetical notation next to them as to what the weapon actually is. I have found that some of those weapons are not the easiest think to find information on if your only resource is the interent )

      Perhaps a later supplement is the best idea, something that explains exactly what a crystal master does in detail and tell about the tools of his trade, etc. that kind of page wasting malarkey could fill a big-ass supplement once you cdonsider all the professions that are out their in a pre-industrial middle eastern society
      "Daggra" means "Enemy" in Tibetan.
      "Chora" means "Thief" in Sanskrit.
    • Groovy...

      Here's my current take on what I think I'm gonna do then,.. (barring any other input from those who haven't had the chance to give it,..or who, having commented already, wish to still give me specific samples of suggestions and ideas on how to meet "half-way" by doing more "general" suggestive starting lists)...:

      So far,..since I haven't seen anyone providing me any samples of what they think they'd like to see (based on their desires and tempered with my concerns),..my belief is that there may BE no good middle ground. It seems to me that providing more "generic" lists may seem like "not enough" for those who want to have it provided for them, and will also seem "bland and cheesy" to those who would rather do more individual research. This solution, in my own mind, in addition to potentially be disappointing to ALL parties involved, would not provide enough "bang for the buck" as far as the payoff versus the labor needed to do it. This indicates to me that I need to decide to either do it thoroughly (providing different lists for each profession), or not do it at all (and merely suggest that they consider the item lists located in the World Guide, or do a bit of research online pertaining to their chosen profession, to come up with some item ideas, or both).

      After a little talk held here after my own game this evening with Zoli, one of the things that struck me is that his concerns (less having to do with any starting lists for players, and MORE having to do with more complete and fictionally rich item lists that can be used when actually perusing Dárdünah’s colorful markets), seemed to match up more with Ghorum's recent response, in that, perhaps I merely need to more fully flesh out those item lists in the commerce section, offer more things particular to the various "general" categories of professions in the world, and further enrich it with fiction-specific items that are unique to Dárdünah (along with an accompanying entry in the Glossary).

      The purpose of those item lists (in the Commerce section of the World Guide, starting on page 96, with the lists themselves on 98-99) is to show a cross-section of both common goods and services, as well as a smattering of those goods and services used pertaining to ships and such. In the list, besides the name of the item, you will also see its value in dalán (the Dárdüni currency worth about $5.00) as well as the time it takes to acquire such things if they aren't "on the shelf and ready to buy". Rather than being a thing to rush to every time one has spare money to burn, it is presented, instead, to give an indication of the rough value of commonly dealt-with things in the minds of a citizen of Dárdünah, which has a specialized economy different than our own, due to many factors utterly unlike our own world. The time element added to the table indicates that theirs is an economy of careful and individual craft (as opposed to mass production), and things not "on hand" must be acquired through diverse and sometimes difficult means, or must be handcrafted for the buyer over a period of time after being commissioned from an artisan. Like in ancient Persia, China, and India, the people of Dárdünah often waited with great excitement for the next slow and plodding merchant caravan to make its way across the dusty roads (or in Dárdünah, upon the fluttering sails of skyships),..and things were seldom, if ever, "mass produced".

      To create even that limited and somewhat general list, I did research pertaining to things sold in the 16th century of our own Earth, extrapolated the value of those things in their own standard currency compared to the conceptual value of Dárdünah’s dalán, and devised a list that worked for me.

      Though I am now of the opinion that I don't want to come up with individual lists for each profession,...I AM willing to expand the commerce Services and Goods lists to potentially include anything that you guys suggest I add to it, for the sake of including things that YOU think I may have overlooked. Such things could (and should) include various items that you think would be important to the various general professions (doctor's tools, animal handler's baskets, potter's clay, etc.), things that relate to the specific fiction of Dárdünah (jugánu worms in a cage, stones of rabíshu, a pet kelléndu, etc.), and any other general items that you think any character might want to own (glass bottles, fine silk rope, a palanquin of their very own, etc.)... I will, in turn, devise a proper value for them, and a proper time amount to acquire them from the moment one finds it's "not on the shelf", and then add them to the lists that already exist, expanding them for the final publish.

      These newly expanded lists would provide any new characters with oodles of things to consider for the stuff that they may want to claim they start with, WITHOUT forcing them to do any <shudder> research they may be averse to, while such lists may also inspire further excitement and research for those that enjoy that type of thing. The lists would ALSO be a less-difficult thing to expand as a general task, and would open up further windows into the intricacies of Dárdünah’s rich fiction...

      Any thoughts?

      If this is something that meets general approval, then please, for the love of the Devah,..let me know about it,..and I’ll immediately start up another thread in the fiction section pertaining to suggestion for what things you think should go on that list, based on what you think is MISSING from the lists I mentioned that already exist.

      Scottie ^^
    • Yes, by all means available, start the list. Personally, referring to these items as 'fictionally rich' seems less accurate than the idiom 'Dardunah Tech'.
      I wish I had thought of this during last night's conversation, and it may be a bit too redundant at this point, but here it is today;

      It's important to have a list of items less for a price list of 'common goods' and more for a cataloguing of ‘Dardunah Tech specific’ common goods. Not only for setting up some idea of ‘fair market value’ of items that may have no ‘real world’ equivalent, but also to better groom the players’ imagination towards thinking in Dardunic terms instead of ‘D&D’ terms (as a generalized adjective for other FRPGs)

      (now what I wished I had thought of) Like the early 90’s Hanna Barbara animation ‘Pirates of Darkwater’ They had musket type pistols that when you pulled the triggers, it yanked on a small lizard’s tail incased in the glass gun barrel & caused the lil’ guy to release a cloud of gas (breath attack) that rendered the target unconscious, I remember an episode where they were essentially scuba diving but instead of respirators & tanks, they had these huge starfish wrapped over their faces with transparent membranes in their backs that the characters could see through, and the impression that the starfish created oxygen for the characters while underwater.

      The Dardunic equivalent of this sort of items list needs to exist in the Basic Book or the World Guide,, or even as you said last night in another supplement, considering that these sorts of items would probably need descriptive paragraphs after the list (like with skills & talents & such) to clarify or explain completely what they are & how they are useful.
      I'd rather kiss Satha Vortoc on his sything death-hole
    • So .. unfortunately I cannot come up with a list example since I don't know hardly anything about the game. Maybe I can work with Caleb/Joe to come up with some examples.

      I do feel pretty strongly that you should pick the ten most common caste/profession options and make example equipment lists for something. Something - anything - that helps people see as an example what they'd carry would be help. Remember that people outside of your core group (and the folks that have played the game for years) will have little to no frame of reference for what to carry. A long (and well detailed) list of equipment in general will help in the sense of people understanding what is available but will not help them make that jump to what -they- should carry.

      I think the inclusion of example lists will help folks make characters more smoothly and more quickly, and I think will help the game feel and run better for large segments of the gaming population.
    • Originally posted by betafu
      So .. unfortunately I cannot come up with a list example since I don't know hardly anything about the game. Maybe I can work with Caleb/Joe to come up with some examples.

      The best thing to do to not only give you a better understanding of the game you are playing is to give yourself the benefit of reading its fiction. Aside from the drudgery of having to go online to look-up interesting tidbits about ancient India, or what-have-you, the easiest place to find Dárdünah’s fiction is where I have handily assembled it for everyone, in the World Guide! Reading through this more thoroughly should give you good ideas concerning possible extra things to include on this list. Sure, more long-time players of the game and lovers of its fiction might be able to pull some new things out of their knowledge, but current new play-testers like yourself, with fresh eyes, will also be able to see holes left in these lists, that long-timers like me simply miss because they take things for granted, as long as the newer players apply themselves to becoming more familiar with the fiction,..at least with what has been supplied already by me.

      Originally posted by betafu
      I do feel pretty strongly that you should pick the ten most common caste/profession options and make example equipment lists for something. Something - anything - that helps people see as an example what they'd carry would be help. Remember that people outside of your core group (and the folks that have played the game for years) will have little to no frame of reference for what to carry. A long (and well detailed) list of equipment in general will help in the sense of people understanding what is available but will not help them make that jump to what -they- should carry.

      I know you feel strongly about this,..and believe me,..the jury's still out (so to speak),...but the thing that keeps me from jumping in full tilt is three-fold:......

      First,..you express a concern about people outside the "core group" of longtime players having little to no frame of reference for what to carry, I'm assuming, because of the idea that Dárdünah is so alien and strange that some of the common paradigms associated with almost ANY fantasy RPG out there just couldn't apply,...and that's simply just not the case! Aside from being on an alien world with animal people,..characters are characters,..and the professions they can play (with the exception of a few) follow the same types of paradigms found in MOST fantasy settings (and real settings, for that matter) in almost any game you would play, book you could read, and movie you could watch! Aside from a few weird specialty items native to Dárdünah alone, these types of paradigms (and the trappings that may go with them) are such a common part of the "pop" culture of fantasy based on the ancient world in almost EVERY form of media available (even discounting games) that it seems ridiculous to think that any small and generic list of items I could offer as recommendations to players concerning 10 or so generic "classes" wouldn't pale in comparison to the countless "in your face" inspirations that already inundate the genre! I mean, honestly,..am I overestimating the average gamer here concerning the kind of data that ALREADY saturates the market as a whole?

      Secondly,..despite Zoli's earlier quote concerning his aversion to anything even remotely equating to "research", especially his disdain for me thinking it could possibly be "fun" to do concerning character development and creation,...I see him and everyone ELSE around me, who is computer savvy in the least, spending endless hours strolling around the Net looking up tidbits of information pertaining to things that interest them. Zoli smiled sheepishly when I brought this up, but admitted that, yes,..he does that when he's interested in something,..and doesn't, in fact, perceive that as research, even though that's exactly what that is... Is it too far of a stretch for me to imagine that if a player is interested enough in the game to buy the Dárdünah books, and is interested enough in the profession enough to buy that Character Archetype with his Ability points,...that he would ALSO be interested enough in wanting to flesh out how they're going to play (dare I say,.."roleplay") that profession by spending some enjoyable time looking up juicy tidbits concerning that profession on the NET,..JUST like they do all the time,..for any number of other topics that they find interesting...?? I'm not talking about the research necessary to do a master's thesis here,..just enough to give some suggestions that will make your character unique,..especially if the player sitting next to you decides to play the same professional paradigm!

      Thirdly,..and most importantly for me,..though I am,..believe me,..still willing to put something out to help deal with your concerns,..I am still serious about wanting to see some actual examples, pertaining to Dárdünah,…concerning what such a sampling of "starting items" and "general professions" would look like, as far as what you, or others who share your desires, would be satisfied actually seeing in the book. Until I see such examples somewhat fleshed out,..I can't, at this point, see myself laboring blindly over something that I just don't currently see the value of, and which I'm not sure I could provide satisfactory content for (content that would satisfy me as being not too "cheesy" or too over-detailed and thus too time-consuming and occupying too much book-real-estate,..as well as satisfy those who want such lists by being not too "general" and non-inclusive, thus a waste of time).

      Originally posted by betafu
      I think the inclusion of example lists will help folks make characters more smoothly and more quickly, and I think will help the game feel and run better for large segments of the gaming population.

      You may be right,..but,..again,..till I see at least a few different examples of the extent of such lists that would satisfy those who would want or need them,..and a listing of what you, at least, if not any others, feel is the correct 12 to 24 "class paradigms" that need to have such lists applied to them (based on the 120 professions currently represented in Dárdünah),...then I have no idea what you guys might be satisfied with seeing in the book,...and I'm not going to be able to come to terms with thinking that this is the right way to go for Dárdünah... If you believe in this path,..then please,..show me the way... This honest sentiment goes for any of you play-testers out there who feel the same way about wanting "some kind" of lists for Dárdünah. I want less ambiguity and at least a few Dárdünah-based examples of what you want to see...

      Scottie ^^
    • ,..despite Zoli's earlier quote concerning his aversion to anything even remotely equating to "research", especially his disdain for me thinking it could possibly be "fun" to do concerning character development and creation,...I see him and everyone ELSE around me, who is computer savvy in the least, spending endless hours strolling around the Net looking up tidbits of information pertaining to things that interest them. Zoli smiled sheepishly when I brought this up, but admitted that, yes,..he does that when he's interested in something,..and doesn't, in fact, perceive that as research, even though that's exactly what that is...


      HAHahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! Ummm, I, I was outta town. Lies, ALL LIES! ;)

      Ok, seriously and aside from my subjective perceptions on research.The core of my concern/argument for an items list isn't based on a desire to have profession tools laid out in black & white, or brown & mottled parchment, as the case would be, But rather an associative list of 'stuff' that is more or less available to the characters.

      Though I am more concerned that the list is geared towards the common technology that drives Dardunic sociatal/industrial paradigms, I think the inclusion in the list of typical goods and equipment are useful as both a quick refrence to relative value, and as an aid for folks to see where the science & technology of Dardunah deviates from regular fantasy. FOR a simple example, since there is very little metal in Darduna, most of your carpenters will be using lamination technologies to a greater degree than fasteners. so a list of those sorts of supplies might look something like this;

      Glue pot: 2Dln
      Amberkettle: 1Dln
      100 Dowels: 1Dln
      100 Laminate Wood Nails: 2Dln
      100 Suthra Nails: 4Dln
      100 Dimond Nails: 8Dln

      Ok, this information will most probably only be useful to the PC in a case where they have to restock their 'Carpenter's Toolkit' but it shows how the technology of wood construction diverges from the normal fantasy world concept, That is important, helping players to think in more Dardunic terms.

      Perhapse a more useful example might be along the lines of;

      5 candles(8 hour burn): 1 Dln
      1 scented ritual candle (12 hour burn): 2 Dln
      Torch: 1 Dln
      Oil Lantern: 1Dln
      1 bladder lantern oil (100 Hours burn): 1 Dln
      Jugana Worm Lantern: 2Dln
      1 sack Jugana Worm feed (1 weeks ration):1 Dln
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Sm (red): 2 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Md (red): 5 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Lg (red): 10 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Hg (red): 30 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Sm (Blue): 100 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Md (Blue): 1000 Dln/ea

      There are some items like stones of rabishu & amberkettle that are listed somewhere in the books along with more common items & trade goods, I know there are other 'Dardunah specific' items that haven't made it to any list since either we haven't encountered them yet, or they passed in casual discriptive and we haven't though to list them. Bieng aware of both the idealistic nature of this conviction, and the ammount of extra (shudder) research and work load involved AND the intrinsic value of book realestate, I still think we should have an expanded list of both common & Darduna specific items.

      So here is what I am offering to facillitate such a list;

      I will start a thread in the fourm of Items. I will start with what is already listed in the book and sort & expound upon it as I see fit. I will find information about anything folks have questions on, bounce my results & conclusions off Scott to discern any divergant technology unique to Dardunah, and I will post it to the list. I will do this as often as my time permits, which will usually be at least an hour in the morning while I suck down my coffee. When both the questions stop rolling in, and I run out of ideas about things to list, Scott can decide if and where he want's to include the list in the books.

      How does this idea sound, bearing in mind that there are no guarantees the list will eventually be 'officiated' by Scott, and for good or ill, the effort I put into the list is both relative and unavailable for critique (meaning if you don't think I'm putting enough time & effort into the list, you'll just have to grin & bear it)?
      I'd rather kiss Satha Vortoc on his sything death-hole
    • Originally posted by ZClip
      Ok, seriously and aside from my subjective perceptions on research.The core of my concern/argument for an items list isn't based on a desire to have profession tools laid out in black & white, or brown & mottled parchment, as the case would be, But rather an associative list of 'stuff' that is more or less available to the characters.

      Though I am more concerned that the list is geared towards the common technology that drives Dardunic sociatal/industrial paradigms, I think the inclusion in the list of typical goods and equipment are useful as both a quick refrence to relative value, and as an aid for folks to see where the science & technology of Dardunah deviates from regular fantasy. FOR a simple example, since there is very little metal in Darduna, most of your carpenters will be using lamination technologies to a greater degree than fasteners. so a list of those sorts of supplies might look something like this;

      Glue pot: 2Dln
      Amberkettle: 1Dln
      100 Dowels: 1Dln
      100 Laminate Wood Nails: 2Dln
      100 Chitin Nails: 4Dln
      100 Diamond Nails: 8Dln

      Ok, this information will most probably only be useful to the PC in a case where they have to restock their 'Carpenter's Toolkit' but it shows how the technology of wood construction diverges from the normal fantasy world concept, That is important, helping players to think in more Dardunic terms.

      O.K.... Whereas this list does indicate pretty well your thought and logic concerning specific wood-building techniques on Dárdünah (please note here, folks, that Zoli works with woodcraft as a hobby and a profession in real life, so thus,...he's interested in it enough to place specific value on these particulars,..and to list them),..the level of specific granular detail may be a bit much for a "general list" of things a starting player might have (i.e. saying you carry 100 arrows may be appropriate for game-play,..but 100 nails,..never), and certainly not inclusive enough in general items overall to satisfy a beginning player when told that this is what (or all) they get. My second question, in this case, would be to ask what general professional category this list is meant to represent? For the sake of example, let's say this list you mentioned would be called the "General Carpenter's Starting Items List"... Looking through the list of the 120 professions offered in the Basic Compendium, this small list of VERY specific items seems appropriate to only four different professions; Woodcarver (under the Peasant Caste), and Carpenter,…Wood Artisan,...and Ship's Carpenter...(all under Trade Caste). Therefore,…this general professional category (for the purpose of doling out starting items) of "General Carpenter", and the list that goes with it,...only covers 1/30th of all the professions!

      Remember my earlier request concerning what I needed to convince me that this is what you guys wanted to see...? Was this list above intended to be a sample of a completed starting item list for a character fitting into this general professional category? For everyone else out there who may feel we need to include such starting item lists,...is this the right example of what you guys want to see?

      Originally posted by ZClip
      Perhapse a more useful example might be along the lines of;

      5 candles(8 hour burn): 1 Dln
      1 scented ritual candle (12 hour burn): 2 Dln
      Torch: 1 Dln
      Oil Lantern: 1Dln
      1 bladder lantern oil (100 Hours burn): 1 Dln
      Jugana Worm Lantern: 2Dln
      1 sack Jugana Worm feed (1 weeks ration):1 Dln
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Sm (red): 2 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Md (red): 5 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Lg (red): 10 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Hg (red): 30 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Sm (Blue): 100 Dln/ea
      1 Stone of Rabishu, Md (Blue): 1000 Dln/ea

      Well,..this seems like a more general and useful list,...but for who? Which general profession should this starting list be applied to? Is this list meant to be an example of a starting item list for a specific subset of professions,..or is it instead something you meant to indicate should be on the Goods and Commerce list in the World Guide?

      Originally posted by ZClip
      There are some items like stones of rabishu & amberkettle that are listed somewhere in the books along with more common items & trade goods, I know there are other 'Dardunah specific' items that haven't made it to any list since either we haven't encountered them yet, or they passed in casual discriptive and we haven't though to list them. Bieng aware of both the idealistic nature of this conviction, and the ammount of extra (shudder) research and work load involved AND the intrinsic value of book realestate, I still think we should have an expanded list of both common & Darduna specific items.

      So here is what I am offering to facillitate such a list;

      I will start a thread in the fourm of Items. I will start with what is already listed in the book and sort & expound upon it as I see fit. I will find information about anything folks have questions on, bounce my results & conclusions off Scott to discern any divergant technology unique to Dardunah, and I will post it to the list. I will do this as often as my time permits, which will usually be at least an hour in the morning while I suck down my coffee. When both the questions stop rolling in, and I run out of ideas about things to list, Scott can decide if and where he want's to include the list in the books.

      How does this idea sound, bearing in mind that there are no guarantees the list will eventually be 'officiated' by Scott, and for good or ill, the effort I put into the list is both relative and unavailable for critique (meaning if you don't think I'm putting enough time & effort into the list, you'll just have to grin & bear it)?


      O.K.,..this last part seems entirely pertaining to my suggestion that INSTEAD of providing Starting Item Lists for professional subsets,..I should merely expand and further detail the Commerce Lists located in the World Guide... So yes,..absolutely start a new post in the Fiction area pertaining to this...

      But as far as trying to convince me of the value of giving players Starting Item lists for their characters,..this just didn't work,..and here's why:
      • I need to see a more elaborate list of what you guys feel is a proper representative set of general professions that you think NEED starting item lists..(which will hopefully each represent a significant portion of the full list of 120 professions)...

      • I need to see several examples (hopefully from at least two very different general professions) of what you'd consider to be full, acceptable Starting Item Lists....

      Right now,..based on everything I have heard said,..and the examples I've seen,..nothing convinces me that such lists are necessary...

      If you guys can come up with some examples of what I mentioned above,..it will go a LONG way to help convince me that I should put forth the additional effort necessary to create such content... I NEED to know what you guys can agree upon will satisfy you, as players,..so that I,..as the writer of these rules,..can fabricate that acceptable content for you.... If I don't see some good examples, and input from you guys that show me you are all in agreement and on the same page concerning what you want out of these starting item lists,..then I'm going to assume that everyone either wants something different,..or isn't sure WHAT they want to see specifically... And if THAT's the case,..there is no way I'm going to be able to satisfy that...

      Do you see what I'm saying? I'm willing to work with you guys here,..but I need more input concerning specific suggestions (as listed above in green) from everyone who says that they think they need these lists. Without that input,..I'm going to default to MY suggestion,..which is to provide no starting lists whatsoever...

      Scottie ^^
    • Just so I don't forget before I crash for the night...

      But as far as trying to convince me of the value of giving players Starting Item lists for their characters


      I personally don't see the need for a 'starting items list'. What I am advocting is an expended 'Items List' of goods and services.

      weapons, armor & various accoutraments is already covered well enough in the existing Items List to outfit a character. If a character's profession requires general or specific paraphinallia (sp?) the the player should just purchase a '[insert profession here]ers' toolkit', ask the GM how much it costs, & be done with it. Or even better, here;

      Professionals' tool kit - The toolkit of a professional includes the tools & materials a character of the specified profession needs to preform their trade. The base cost of a professionals' toolkit is equal to the character's skill level in Dalan. a character can opt to save some Dalan by purchasing a 'lower quality' toolkit for 1/2 the price of a regular kit (round up) but must ply their given trade with a -1d penalty for not having all the tools they need at their skill level, or having shoddy tools to work with. For twice the price, they can purchase a 'high quality' toolkit that allows them to add 1d to their skill roll when plying their trade. One toolkit is required for each craftskill the character exercises (ex, a Valahcrafters' toolkit is needed for making/repairing Valah Weapons, a woodcrafters' toolkit is needed for making/repairing things out of wood, you can't use a woodcrafters' toolkit for making valah weapons, though a woodcrafter might could repair a wooden riflestock, and you cant build a house with a valahcrafters' toolkit, though you might be able to repiar a cabinetry door, etc.). Though like armor & weapons a toolkit might need to be replentished from time to time for a nominal charge (1-3 Dalan) toolkits are not ablative, and if cared for can last many generations.

      It only has to be that complex to get started. If you really wanna know specifically what all is in a kit, ask your GM.

      If you really want your character to be detailed out with specific items, or wish to put together a toolkit of certain items, wait for the list I'm going to compile & build your toolkit a-la-carte'.
      I'd rather kiss Satha Vortoc on his sything death-hole

      The post was edited 2 times, last by ZClip ().

    • Originally posted by ZClip
      I personally don't see the need for a 'starting items list'. What I am advocting is an expended 'Items List' of goods and services.

      weapons, armor & various accoutraments is already covered well enough in the existing Items List to outfit a character. If a character's profession requires general or specific paraphinallia (sp?) the the player should just purchase a '[insert profession here]ers' toolkit', ask the GM how much it costs, & be done with it.


      I advocate expanding the list of "Goods and Services in the World Guide as well..

      What I DON'T advocate is the need to have characters "buy" ANYTHING after they create their character... Not a "starting toolkit" or anything whatsoever...

      What I AM curretly advocating is the simple understanding that any given starting character ALREADY HAS the general types of things that their character needs to function in their profession in the particular way the PLAYER conceives of it, subject to their own GM's approval.

      That is all... Nothing more than that currently seems necessary at this time....at least to me...

      If there are others out there who DO think that there needs to be more direction than that provided for startng characters,..please let them give their input now in the form that I mentioned in my earlier posting, which I shall reiterate now so that there is little confusion...:

      • I need to see a more elaborate list of what you guys feel is a proper representative set of general professions that you think NEED starting item lists..(which will hopefully each represent a significant portion of the full list of 120 professions)...

      • I need to see several examples (hopefully from at least two very different general professions) of what you'd consider to be full, acceptable Starting Item Lists....


      I will now take any discussion of expanding the Goods and Services lists out of this thread, and instead beging that discussion in a new thread under the Fiction area of the forum, since those lists are utterly concerning the flavor and fiction of the game as it deals with issues of commerce.

      For continuing this thread, let's ONLY focus upon resolving this issue concerning potential Starting Items for Characters data...

      If anyone has data or specific ideas of this kind to present, please present them here...

      Scottie ^^
    • Okay. Two cents. Preparing a set of starting items for a select group of "generic" professions seems, to me, to be an impossible task here. Mainly for the reason that I can't conceive of, in the milieu of this world, what a list of generic professions would be. Say you decide to play a trade caste merchant. That being decided, what kind of merchant would you be? Are you a small time peddlar that travels from town to town selling goods off of a cart? Are you a wealthy merchant that makes his delan transporting goods with a fleet of ships? Are you a gemstones merchant, sitting in your two room shop deep in the heart of a major metropolitan area selling jewelry to the nobles? Are you beginning your career as a merchant or are you well established in your trade? Each of these characters would have a different set of starting items even though they are all of the same profession. And then, one should consider that an outcaste character may not even own anything but the clothes on their backs and enough food for their next meal. If that. All the tools they need for their profession are provided for them by someone else. Just ask yourself as a player a few simple questions and ,eventually, you should be able to extrapolate a decent list of items your character may or may not have.

      If it is a question of not knowing the fiction of the world and what would possibly be available to the character, then do as Mr Jones suggests and read the World Guide. The beginning chapters should give you enough information about the "look and feel" of the world and the later chapters, i.e. Chapter IV Commerce, should give you enough details to flesh out the world your playing in. That being said, yes, the commerce chapter does in fact need a bit of expanding to make it really worthwhile. I like the direction Ghorum and Zclip have suggested taking on that topic, so, that discussion can be dropped here and taken up elsewhere in these forums. If that list of goods and services is done well, it will be much larger than the few meager pages it currently takes up and it will give the players a pretty comprehensive list of items that are available to pick and choose from.
      Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for lunch. Liberty is the sheep showing up with a gun.

      ~Benjamin Franklin~

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Byrne Viktmn ().