We just did a character "shake-down"...

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

  • We just did a character "shake-down"...

    Tonight,..in the game I'm running,..we just took the newly-created Character Sheets (see the downloads section), and the recently finished rewrite of the Character Creation chapter (also in downloads) and I had all of my players RE-CREATE their characters in a two-step process that REALLY helped me to find any further kinks in the process,..and also REALLY indicated how much easier this new process is to follow and "get right" without becoming confused by the earlier rendition of the rules.

    If any of the rest of you have already tried the old way and found it confusing and difficult, I have based this new method (and the new character sheets) on the loads of data and input you have provided me,.... and I HIGHLY encourage those you who have been running your games, to have your players do the same.

    The first part of the process was having them start re-creating their character AS IT WAS WHEN THEY FIRST MADE IT,..using only those points given to them at startup (depending on the Power Level you chose). They will, however, be using the NEW rewrite of the Character Creation chapter exclusively, referring ONLY to the old Animal Templates, which haven't changed. In general,..using this new method players discovered MANY mistakes made when first attempting to make their characters, especially concerning totals of various equations and abilities and such adding up differently because the correct order was now being properly guided and enforced. Players discovered that sometimes they ended up with more points at their disposal to spend, and sometimes less. Many stated that their characters made "much more sense" now,..and that they had a much better "handle" on their character. Likewise, many rules seemed clearer to them this time, and they found it a much swifter process as well. Also,..there were even a few last minute changes made to the new character sheet (already changed and uploaded for your use), to make it even more useful in-game (and more accurate). All in all,..VERY productive!!!

    This is all good news to me!!!

    In the second part of this "shake-down" process, I then gave them back all the Story Points they have received so far during game play, to FINISH bringing their characters back up to date, which they then spent in a flurry of newly acquired understanding thanks to the clarity of the re-written rules.... This, by the way,..is a VERY good reason to keep track of the number of points handed out (in general) over the expanse of your campaign. Any time a character dies, and they wish to rejoin the campaign with a newly rolled-up character, then you know JUST how many points to give them (in addition to whatever points came with the Power Level they started with). Knowing this total also gives you an idea of what Power Level of campaign you are currently running, in case you need to reconsider the power of the creatures and hurdles you set against them...

    Anyway,..this exercise certainly proved most useful for me, at least,..and had the added bonus of helping even my set of long-time players understand these rules better...

    Let me know if any of you out there do the same,..and when you DO use these new rules, let me know if there is still further clarification needed...

    Oh!! And as an aside,..I ended up making cheap copies of the entire new Character Creation chapter (without the Animal Templates) to give to each of my players. Since this chapter is the one perused most often when playing the game (at least, so far), giving them some cheap copies of the new rules to leaf through instead may help preserve the fairly fragile nature of the cheap glue-bindings of the hardcover books (which will start to fall apart if you use them too much)... Just a thought...

    Thanks!!

    Scottie ^^

  • Originally posted by betafu
    I'm all for the new character sheet but I gotta be honest, I got a cold cold chill when you mentioned making my character again a third time...

    /heh :)


    Hah hah!! Well,..I truly understand,..which is why I sweetend the deal with my group by buying them dinner that night. And I'd be glad to do the same with your group,..if Joe would like me to come over some time to do this with you guys. It only took 3 hours and 45 minutes for them to recreate theirs at base level with this new system (granted,..they were recreating Low Level characters,..so they had less points to spend)... The amazing thing is that we all went at the same pace, with me making sure everyone was done with each step before moving on to the next,..and it STILL went pretty fast!

    Then we went to dinner,..and when we go back,..it took them from 9:00 till about 9:30 to spend their remaining 16 points (with alot of random babble-talk included)... Then we actually got to play the game for about a half-hour or so before callin' it quits for the night...

    All done in one evening with a nice dinner to boot!

    Scottie ^^

  • My comments on the 'Shakedown'

    Yeah, we had a shakedown. And the new rules defintiely ARE easier than the first edition. But I still see some things that we might consider for shortening the process. After going through the new character creation process I still feel that there are too many points where you figure the value of something , only to have to erase it and re-value it during a later step. Also I would like to see a more cohesive and logical separation of elements into distinct sections within the steps that aren't so interdependent.

    For example, I'd like to see all the jenu and characteristics stuff in one step. I also think it might be an improvement to lump talents and advanteges under the one adventage heading and make them a step unto themselves. And then cap off the process with a skills step that completes the process. A nice simple, 1-2-3 approach.

    I think if all the disparate craziness was forcibly rendered down to these logical sections, it would result in a much faster and more easily comprehensible character creation experience.

    I think it's important to loosen up the interdependency of each step to the prior step bigtime. That rigidity, while seeming like a swell idea to ensure a certain adherence to the rules, is a bit of a tedious experince that decidedly detracts from my enjoyment of the overall Dardunah experience. I am of the opionion that simplicity is beauty in this regard. perhaps a restructuring along this path might be of benefit to consider:

    (Now all these steps are assumed to have been done AFTER you meet with the game master and get all the details about the campaign and have a solid idea about what the story needs. I think this step is perhaps the most important distinguishing feature in the Dardunah game system that sets it apart from everybody else's systems.)

    Section One:
    1. Choose animal. I know this is the first thing I want to do since this is the first game that allows me to play animal people.
    2. Choose Profession. This is the second most important decision and the second most important aspect of character creation.
    3. Assign Characteristics. These bones of the character are the next most important thing in any role playing game.

    Section Two:
    1. Choose Advantages. In this eady step we simplify by combining talents and advantages into a single thing and choose all the junk you want to buy that will benefit your character.
    2. Choose Disadvantages/ Drawbacks. In this step we assign all the horrible plot elements that will get us more points for the next important step, buying skills!

    Section Three:
    1. Buy Skills. First figure your freebies and whether you want to raise them, you know, those "everyman" skill you atomatically get at three? Who doesn't love those?! Then buy up or down your profession skills based on your character concept. Finally buy some extra skills you just want to have. Like Acrobatics and dodge/block
    2. Buy Magic and Martial arts. As complex as these are, they deserve their own step. Buy em up and you're done!

    So there it is. Simple and sweet, no interdependence of steps on other steps, no shuffling back and forth. Just forging ahead with making a kick-ass character in a simple, logical, straightforward fashion. There's my two-cents on the whole shakedown thing.
    "Daggra" means "Enemy" in Tibetan.
    "Chora" means "Thief" in Sanskrit.

  • I whole-heartedly agree with Eric!!!!

    WOW! I have been searching for a way to verballize my concernces with the current chargen system for months now - and you just did it with amazing accuracy and susinctness!!! Thank you Eric for saying what I have been struggling to verbalize for so long!
    I think this really shows how the whole project of the game should be looked at. I know I have had this conversation before with Scott, and possibly some of you as well. But in my opinion, and I could be wrong, I have no degree in Marketing or consumer relations or business or any of that, the choice is going to have be made by Scott alone. ••• Do I put out a game the way I want to see it done, with my ideas of how I would like it be played/think it should be played, with emphisis on what I think is important (story)?. OR do I make a game that is made in a way that the system (chargen, combat,magic,...etc) is easy enough and fluid/flexible enough for a mass audience to pick up and use (and hopefully enjoy)?
    Not that the two factors are mutually exclusive at all, I am not saying that. But it seems like the structure that the whole of the books and system is built around and is focused on the Story and how important it is. That thought is relayed several times in the text and via conversations with Scott. By creating a system that is tailored to that focus, you inherently exclude (to a degree) folks who want to play a game where story is not the focus.
    But what makes it work for me, and I think this is true for my play testers and everyoe involved, is that at some point in time,<b> Scott has sold us on the game by his joy,fiendship, enthusiasm, conviction, his magic- his SCOTT-NESS</b>. This is selling 101, believing in and loving your product, and selling is something I know and am great at.
    The problem lies in the fact that Scott won't be around for the thousands of others who just buy the game off the shelf. So it's going to have to stand on it's other merits.

    Now before I cause a big discussion about all this, there is something else to look at. In my opinion this is the single most important question about the whole game.
    •••Why is Dardunah being made?•••
    This is really a question just for Scott. Only he can answer it to his own satisfaction, and only he can set the measurement of success for the game.
    • If Dardunah is being made primarily as a labor of love, for Scott to finally see his hard work, his passion for this game, his blood, sweat and tears all come to fruition and become and actual selling product that gets on the shelf. Then he is very close to that point, and that could be the yardstick of sucsses by which he is measuring this project.
    • If Dardunah is being made to be a smash hit in the role playing world, where it is the new "World of Warcraft of tabletop games"(not in form, but in success), then like WoW, it must appeal to a very broad audience. It must be easy to understand, use, fun, unique (I think that checkmark is done bigtime!), and compelling (holding one's interest). And while the world concept, the history, the "world-ness" is at or very very near that level. I do not think the mechanics are there yet.

    More than anything I want to see one of my best and dearest friends to succeed in his dream and venture. And I will do everything in my ability to help him with that. but ultimately, regardless of what I want to come to pass for Scott or Dardunah, it's Scott that will decide what the definition od "success' means for Dardunah on his own personal terms.

    -Joe

  • I agree with Joe and Eric, wholeheartedly.

    I think the big question to ask (like Joe said) is what is the game's goal.

    If it's to create a niche product that is a labor of love and exactly the way you want it to be, exactly how you want it to be played, then sure. You're good. But understand that in today's RPG market with today's sales figures you will likely never break even, it'll be a loss. But sometimes that's less important then making a labor of love real - and I can respect that.

    If you want a successful game product and you want a product that will appeal to a wider range of folks and be a success the game is not there. In fact, I think it's probably six to twelve months from there, as hard as that is to hear. I'd recommend you get with the folks in Dallas I recommended who already run an RPG company and get their advice. Ask if you can ask their playtesters for help - they've professionally playtested games and are editors and copywriters. Get them to run games and get their advice. Travel to conventions and outside of Texas to get advice from consumers. Solicit more feedback from people. And most importantly, watch the RPG market. Right now is a horrible, horrible time to release a new product - there's a reason why companies like WotC and White Wolf and WizKids (the big three) are completely dialing back their production and why many small market companies have completely gone under - the last 18 months or so have have been a completely horrible Dark Time <tm> for game publishers.

    I think many of the questions/feedback that Caleb, myself, Joe and Eric have brought up (at least for my part) revolve around this idea of making the game more open, more flexible, more accessible. Remember that animal/anthropomorphic games are a small niche market within an already shrinking tabletop market. That isn't to say you need to compromise everything - and it doesn't mean (as Joe pointed out at lunch) that the game cannot draw in new folks and hook them. But remember that as Joe pointed out above, every single person so far that I know that has been 'hooked' by Dardunah has been because Scott came in and 'sold' the game with his rich stories and history and massively engrossing monologues. (Much love!)

    You won't have that on the shelf on a gaming store in Peoria, IL. Or on an Internet shopping cart.

    The game has to stand on it's own. It has to rise above preconceived notions for what these animal games are about, and it has to be flexible enough to appeal to new GMs, old GMs, and new and old players - cynical or otherwise.

    My suggestion is to first figure out what you want the game to be. And if you want it to be a successful commercial enterprise with as many years as possible of supplements and additions there is significant work to be done. I think it's awesome. I never thought I'd enjoy playing an animal morph. But with that said, I got there through Scott. I can't say I would've gone there just from pulling the game off a shelf or onto my harddrive and reading it.

    If the decision is made to make the game more flexible, Eric is right. The new chargen is good, but it could be a lot better. I'm certain there are areas of ambiguity (starting equipment) where we need to have examples. For those people that know nothing about the game and don't want to do research there should be examples, no matter how vague it is.

  • RE: My comments on the 'Shakedown'

    Whew! Well,..first,..let me say "Thanks" to Ghorum, Beta-fu, and Joe for giving this input. And allow me to say, yes,..there will be certain decisions that I WILL make that will not necessarily satisfy everyone, and may not necessarily please the "general audience" because it may seem different or "backwards" from the way they want or expect it to be done. If that's the case, and they decide not to buy the game because of it (or return it after they DID buy it), then so be it. The changes that I recently made by essentially rewriting half of the entire Basic Compendium (the entire chapter of Character Creation) was done as a sort of "meeting half way" to answering the concerns given to me about the earlier (and clunkier) methods of character generation laid out in the previous version. I made many drastic changes, while attempting to keep the "spirit" of my main desires to focus on story instead of an assumed mechanical order based on other game systems,..hence,..the interdependence of the Steps to one another.

    This all being said,..I shall try to respond to Ghorum's comments below...

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    After going through the new character creation process I still feel that there are too many points where you figure the value of something, only to have to erase it and re-value it during a later step.

    Even with your reccomendation of the steps below, you will still have the situation requiring you to write down your initial starting values for Animal Abilities, Skills, Talents, and Advantages, then change those values later when you are allowed to "buy them up".. Now,..other than that,..what exactly are you talking about here? What other points do you have to figure the value of something, erase it, then revalue it later on? If it's the weight you are speaking of,..I'm not sure that's really a "deal breaker" issue....

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    Also I would like to see a more cohesive and logical separation of elements into distinct sections within the steps that aren't so interdependent.

    Items being interdependent are that way not because I just "wanted" them to be,..but because they are, in fact, related to one another. The main problem I noticed when you guys were having issues with the interdependence in this NEW edition, is that you were thinking ahead to sections you already knew were eventually coming up (because you have played the game before), and wanted to either "skip ahead" or were attempting to factor in your knowledge of what you thought the future steps entailed into the current step you were supposed to be focusing on. This was causing confusion.

    The truth be told,..the characters needed for the Dardunah rules, as they exist, are indeed complex, and require a complex set of creation rules to make them.. However, in a story-driven game, character creation, even at low "weak" levels, is not something intended to take up more than a single game session. Creating a character is not the focus of the game itself,...PLAYING the game is... Once made, the game-play rules themselves are easier to deal with and more intuitive (I'm hoping), with the exception , perhaps, of certain aspects of the "advanced" rules of Martial Styles combat.

    In the next posting, I will be comparing your new ideas for the steps to what currently exists, boiling the existant steps down in the same way you have done. I will then relate them to one another.

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    For example, I'd like to see all the jenu and characteristics stuff in one step. I also think it might be an improvement to lump talents and advanteges under the one adventage heading and make them a step unto themselves. And then cap off the process with a skills step that completes the process. A nice simple, 1-2-3 approach.

    I think if all the disparate craziness was forcibly rendered down to these logical sections, it would result in a much faster and more easily comprehensible character creation experience.

    You mention those categories above in terms of a "nice simple, 1-2-3 approach", when, in fact, the things you are mentioning would STILL need to have their substeps as already described in the rewrite I did. Choosing a profession is different from choosing an Animal Template, which is also different from manipulating and buying up your Characteristics. Each of these things would STILL require you to perform all the (lettered) substeps as I have lain them out. The same goes for Advantages, Talent, and Drawbacks. All that it seems you would be doing is taking all these steps, and their substeps, and adding yet another heading level to lump them all under.

    Talents and Advantages, though they mechanically function in the same way, do NOT represent the same things in the game, and I will not be puting them under the same decision-making step. That is a decision I made awhile back, and upon which I will not budge. They "work; the same, but do not "mean" the same thing,..and should be decided upon separately. Talents are things that get included in the Animal Templates,...Advantages are NOT. Separate things,..separate Steps....

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    I think it's important to loosen up the interdependency of each step to the prior step bigtime. That rigidity, while seeming like a swell idea to ensure a certain adherence to the rules, is a bit of a tedious experince that decidedly detracts from my enjoyment of the overall Dardunah experience. I am of the opionion that simplicity is beauty in this regard. perhaps a restructuring along this path might be of benefit to consider:

    Simplicity IS a thing of beauty, I agree. But where we disagree is that I feel that a Step-by-Step process (one thing at a time, followed by the next, and so on), IS simple, despite it's rigidity.. As far as "loosening up" goes, pertaining to the "interdependency of each step to the prior step", please consider that I DO allow you to go back to an already-completed Step to tweak things if necessary to allow you to achieve your desires to a large extent (the example of which is Richard going back to the Step pertaining to professions to remove some of the Skills that came with the chosen profession so that he could "afford" to play the animal he wanted to be. To him, and for the game in general, it's more important what profession he is, than what animal he is, which is why it's the profession that you spend your points on first. This is because the all-important story has more to do with, and is "driven" by, your profession as opposed to what animal you happen to be.).


    (continued in the next posting......)

  • RE: My comments on the 'Shakedown'

    (continued from last posting....)

    Here we have Ghorum (Eric) laying out his proposal for Character Creation steps...

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    (Now all these steps are assumed to have been done AFTER you meet with the game master and get all the details about the campaign and have a solid idea about what the story needs. I think this step is perhaps the most important distinguishing feature in the Dardunah game system that sets it apart from everybody else's systems.)


    That is correct,...absolutely,..which is why THIS part is actually Step #1 in the 14-step process....
    (Please note, I have added comments within the quote below in BLUE.)

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    Section One:
    1. Choose animal. I know this is the first thing I want to do since this is the first game that allows me to play animal people. Actually, this isn't... There are SEVERAL games out on the market that allow you to play animal people,...Inherit the Earth, Iron Claw, Jade Claw,..and Furry Pirates.. And one thing they DO all have in common is that they encourage you to pick your animal first... Why? Because they are games ABOUT playing animal people, as opposed to games that inspire cool stories based on what the characters do for a living... Do I wish to follow in their footsteps? No...

    2. Choose Profession. This is the second most important decision and the second most important aspect of character creation. Incorrect. In Dardunah,..AFTER understanding the basic Storyline and type of campaign the GM wishes to run,..choosing your profession is the MOST important decision you make,..and the FIRST most important aspect of charatcer creation. Therefore, as a Step,..it MUST precede choice of race, as far as I'm concerned,..at least for Dardunah.. Look at how our (or any of the Dardunah games have gone)... The events that have transpired and have been enacted by your characters, drive the story forward almost exclusively by the types of skills you have that are associated with your professions! For purposes of the story progression, you are a stonecutter FIRST and a yak SECOND (a close second, mind you, but second none-the-less). You could have been almost any other strong jenu-type and STILL had the story go almost exactly the same way.. The same can be said for ANY of the other characters I have yet seen played so far (even outside my game)... THAT is what drives the difference between Dardunah and most other games systems of this kind....

    3. Assign Characteristics. These bones of the character are the next most important thing in any role playing game. I agree, and this Step does come partially as a part of and get manipulated immediately after choosing one's Animal Template...

    Section Two:
    1. Choose Advantages. In this easy step we simplify by combining talents and advantages into a single thing and choose all the junk you want to buy that will benefit your character. Sorry, my friend,..that's not going to happen for the very reasons I described in the previous posting...

    2. Choose Disadvantages/ Drawbacks. In this step we assign all the horrible plot elements that will get us more points for the next important step, buying skills! Yep,..this is correct!

    Section Three:
    1. Buy Skills. First figure your freebies and whether you want to raise them, you know, those "everyman" skill you atomatically get at three? Who doesn't love those?! Then buy up or down your profession skills based on your character concept. Finally buy some extra skills you just want to have. Like Acrobatics and dodge/block. All this is exactly as I have it now.

    2. Buy Magic and Martial arts. As complex as these are, they deserve their own step. Buy em up and you're done! They are currently their own sub-step, within the section dealing with Skills (which they are).. However, there is another Step entirely dealing with making sure the player understands them thoroughly, and how to fill that section of the Character Sheet out...


    So now,..allow me to show you,..in the same abbreviated fashion, the way my steps lay out, and how they compare with the ones you suggest:

    What you are suggesting is:

    Preparation:
    ...Assign Power Level and Points
    ...Know the Story

    Section One:
    ...Choose Jenu (and all the sub-steps involved)
    ...Choose Character Archetype (and all the sub-steps involved)
    ...Assign Characteristics (and all the sub-steps involved)

    Section Two:
    ...Here you seem to have forgotten that you can buy up,..or buy more Animal Abilities
    ...Assign Talents and Advantages (and all the sub-steps involved)
    ...Assign Drawbacks (and all the sub-steps involved)

    Section Three:
    ...Assign Skills (and all the sub-steps involved)
    ...Assign Magic and Martial Arts (and all the sub-steps involved)

    Conclusion Process:
    ...Here must still be mentioned the last steps that go into finalizing your character (Final Touches), including:
    ...Filling out Story Points
    ...Background
    ...PCs and NPCs you know, name, etc.

    What I have already done is....:

    Initial Preparations: Power Level & Points
    STEP #1 : Know the Story
    STEP #2 : Choose Your Profession (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #3 : Choose Your Jenu (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #4 : Assign Your Characteristics (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #5 : Assign Your Animal Abilities (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #6 : Assign Your Talents (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #7 : Assign Your Advantages (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #8 : Assign Your Drawbacks (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #9 : Assign Your Skills (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #10 : Filling Out Mystic Disciplines (and all the sub-steps involved)
    STEP #11 : Filling Out Combat and Martial Styles (and all the sub-steps)
    STEP #12 : Filling Out Story Points
    STEP #13 : Filling Out Notable Acquaintances
    STEP #14 : Final Touches

    You will notice that, once laid out and compared in a similar abbreviated fashion, and including in the list the things that you seem to have omitted (such as Animal Abilities and all the steps after Magic and Martial Arts, which still have to be completed), ...our two lists are essentially the same. The only difference between our methods is that you and I feel that choosing profession and jenu should be in a different order, and that you have attempted to combine Talents and Advantages (even though you would still have the same amount of "choosing and recording" to do whether they were combined or not).

    My point being that everything that you must do in the substeps (which is the "meat" of the labors pertaining to these steps) must STILL be done regardless of the way you organize, categorize, or sub-categorize the Steps.

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    So there it is. Simple and sweet, no interdependence of steps on other steps, no shuffling back and forth. Just forging ahead with making a kick-ass character in a simple, logical, straightforward fashion. There's my two-cents on the whole shakedown thing.


    Like I said,..though I DO appreciate the thought behind your considerations,..after analyzing what you propose, I simply don't see a significant difference between the two methodologies... The two basic changes you propose (the order of profession versus jenu, and the combining of Talents and Advantages) do not seem to actually benefit the ease of the entire Charatcer Creation Process as a whole by making it that much "simpler".

    Perhaps there's something I'm missing,...or some dramatic new way to alter the actual work required for the following of the substeps themselves (as opposed to merely providing additional or new categorization) that you are proposing that I just didn't get. Until I understand this, I'm afraid I can't justify any more changes to this Chapter at this point. If,..however, you feel that there may be alterations to the wording of the substeps themselves that would make things flow more easily, then please send me your suggestions.

    Scottie ^^

  • Scott,

    What are your feelings on what Joe and I posted? I'm curious as to your answer - I know that if you have a particular vision in mind and that you aren't looking for a market-friendly and wide-cast game, that will help me know to keep my mouth shut when I have those sorts of pieces of advice. :)

  • Originally posted by betafu
    Scott,

    What are your feelings on what Joe and I posted? I'm curious as to your answer - I know that if you have a particular vision in mind and that you aren't looking for a market-friendly and wide-cast game, that will help me know to keep my mouth shut when I have those sorts of pieces of advice. :)


    Well,..there is no "black or white" response to the general questions you pose, to be honest,..especially when the indication of the questions seems to be "Do you want to do it one way,..and be personally satisfied, while achieving little to no real success, ...or do you wish to do it this other way, and find little personal satisfaction, yet actually make it a successful product?"

    I do not tend to see things in such a "one or the other" way, at least as far as how I like to approach them...

    If I didn't want input from others on a variety of levels (for "success" as well as for interesting content),..not only would I have chosen NOT to make a Forum,..but, in fact,..I wouldn't be encouraging playtesting, even among my own group, whatsoever... Likewise,..even when such suggestions, like the ones we have been discussing as of late, do not match my personal agendas, this doesn't mean I don't appreciate them or want to hear them... In fact,..had we all not discussed this very thing earlier,..eventually swaying my opinion to some extent,...I wouldn't have gone through the very significant trouble of rewriting the entire Character Creation chapter,..literally nearly onle half of the entire content of the largest book of the three. Nor, in fact, would I even now be considering possibly changing the "Starting Items for Characters" portion of Step #14 (even though most so far seem to indicate that such lists are not needed) if I didn't value what those who seem to want them have to say on the subject....

    In the end, however, regardless of the opinions one way or the other, pertaining to ANY of these various questions,...I will weigh the opinions and evidence at hand, including my own, and make my decisions based on a hopeful balance between what I want to present,..my "vision" if you will,...and what I am hoping will make it "popular", as far as potential sales are concerned...

    So keep those opinions coming,...but I beg you,..don't assume I will use them all as offered. In the end,..they must all be justified within the scope of my vision,..which as far as I'm concered,..has an admixture of partial creativity and partial profitability... Opinions may vary as to whether I am right,..and the only proof (regardless of what any "experts" may say),..is truly in the pudding...

    Scottie ^^

  • Now that I've hopefully answered your question concerning my general feelings about what you and Joe posted are,...let me now address some of the specific and insightful thoughts and suggestions you mention as well...

    Originally posted by betafu
    If it's to create a niche product that is a labor of love and exactly the way you want it to be, exactly how you want it to be played, then sure. You're good. But understand that in today's RPG market with today's sales figures you will likely never break even, it'll be a loss. But sometimes that's less important then making a labor of love real - and I can respect that.

    Thanks,..I appreciate that,..but other than the money I've already spent on getting some of the art and printing and other such help done so far,..there really is no need to worry too much about any significant "loss" these days. The current methods I'll be using for getting this type of product out on the market,..targetting specifically those groups who still do paper roleplaying, will be the "print on demand" type distributors,..which require virtually no money up front to see your product available to the general public. Not only are many of these services specifically set up to cater to paper RPGers,..there have just recently been expansions of these to include large-order sales to mainstream distributors like Bookstop, Borders, and Barnes & Nobles,..to name a few. No longer do self-publishers have to worry about prepaid backstock running the risk of costing money because of pre-sale, expensively-offset-printed volumes gathering dust on some warehouse shelf.. The risk of "loss" these days is practically non-existant, thus more conducive to being able to create "labor of love" products like mine.

    Originally posted by betafu
    If you want a successful game product and you want a product that will appeal to a wider range of folks and be a success the game is not there. In fact, I think it's probably six to twelve months from there, as hard as that is to hear.

    I agree! It ISN'T quite there yet,...and I DO agree that it is about six months or so from being ready to put on the shelves. In fact,..I'm hoping to start setting up the arrangements with the print on demand companies I'm going with around the end of the second quarter of this year... As to what particular changes need to be made to make it a potential success,..well,..you and Joe and I may disagree on that... After all, each of us like different types of games,..and have a different approach to "role-playing" in general. The things I value may not match the things you value when you buy an RPG,..and the same may go for others,..but "success" these days cannot necessarily be judged by the sales figures of the White Wolfs, the Chaosiums, the WotCs, or even the smaller Atlas Games,..because these people use staff to produce their games, and are not a part of the "self-publishing" business paradigm as it applies to "print-on-demand" and PDF sales online.

    Originally posted by betafu
    I'd recommend you get with the folks in Dallas I recommended who already run an RPG company and get their advice. Ask if you can ask their playtesters for help - they've professionally playtested games and are editors and copywriters. Get them to run games and get their advice.

    I'd LOVE to talk with your friends,..and get with them as I have already with Chaosium, Atlas, Alliance Games, and White Wolf. I'm sure I'd get some great input if they truly have the time to invest any energy or resources into actually playtesting it.. Please,..when you can,..privately send me their contact info and/or introduce me to them... It could be most fruitful!!

    Originally posted by betafu
    Travel to conventions and outside of Texas to get advice from consumers. Solicit more feedback from people.

    This is already on the agenda (and to some extent has been touched upon already,..with the three-hour game I ran at the Dragon's Lair demo with a mix of strangers as well as a few RPG creators who were there demo-ing their games as well).. Later this year I already have plans to attend the GAMA Trade Show - April 23-26, Origins - July 5-8, GenCon - Aug 16-19, Dragon Con - Aug 31-Sept 3, Project A-KON - June 1-3. The goal is to be prepared to set up playtesting there with absolute strangers...

    Originally posted by betafu
    And most importantly, watch the RPG market. Right now is a horrible, horrible time to release a new product - there's a reason why companies like WotC and White Wolf and WizKids (the big three) are completely dialing back their production and why many small market companies have completely gone under - the last 18 months or so have have been a completely horrible Dark Time <tm> for game publishers.

    Yep,...which is why I'm choosing to take the "low-risk" path of print-on-demand self publishing. In fact,..when talking to Chaosium, Atlas, and Alliance Games,..ALL THREE mentioned (when I asked about their opinions concerning print on demand), that this new market was actually one of the main reasons why they were beginning to scale back production concerning paper RPGs, and focusing more on card games, collectible games (like Hero-Clix) and board games (if you can believe that). It was just too easy these days, they said,..to publish your own stuff (like several of my friends do),..and the market was veering more towards them,..and towards the sale of PDF's as well (the figures on this were somewhat astounding...). This, and the arrival of the computer RPG generation,..have taken a toll on the old standard of "mass production" paper RPGs established by the "big boys" in the industry, and their endless runs of "new rules" editions each year and the now tiresome supplements for their same old brand names... The president of Chaosium and Atlas games BOTH mentioned that when they put out the books for their "tried and true" classics these days,..they feel "lucky" if they sell 5000 to 10,000 UNITS...TOTAL!!

    (continued in the next post...)

  • (...continued from last post...)

    Originally posted by betafu
    I think many of the questions/feedback that Caleb, myself, Joe and Eric have brought up (at least for my part) revolve around this idea of making the game more open, more flexible, more accessible.

    And for that,..I'm grateful,..and whether I agree that any particular idea is "right" for Dárdünah or not,..I also want the game to attract customers,..for WHATEVER reason. Though in achieving this,.I don't want to give up on the things that I think make Dárdünah unique and cool AS COMPARED to other game systems that may seem more "traditional" and widely accepted. And yes,..I realize that this might just lose me some sales. It's a risk that I'm willing to take.

    Originally posted by betafu
    Remember that animal/anthropomorphic games are a small niche market within an already shrinking tabletop market. That isn't to say you need to compromise everything - and it doesn't mean (as Joe pointed out at lunch) that the game cannot draw in new folks and hook them. But remember that as Joe pointed out above, every single person so far that I know that has been 'hooked' by Dárdünah has been because Scott came in and 'sold' the game with his rich stories and history and massively engrossing monologues. (Much love!)

    You won't have that on the shelf on a gaming store in Peoria, IL. Or on an Internet shopping cart.

    Ha ha!! Well,...sadly,..so far,..short of me sneaking up to some supposed RPGers houses and slipping a secret package of Dárdünah books and materials on their doorstep,..there has been,..up to now,..no way for people to be introduced to Dárdünah EXCEPT through a personal introduction from either me or Aaron... So I don't want to look at that as any indication that it won't be able to stand on its own two feet...

    As to whether it WILL succeed once it hits store shelves either in book form or on the net,....only time and creative marketing will tell.. Though not necessarily a "furry" product,...there are plenty of "furry"-based RPGs out there (Inherit the Earth, Iron Claw, Jade Claw, and Furry Pirates, to name a few) that WEREN'T very successful because their only shtick was that they were "furry", as opposed to offering other enticing aspects, like being story driven, like catering to the more exotic inspirations of the near, far, and middle-east (as opposed to European fantasy), and playing up on the aspects of its fairly rich fictional detail. The creators of Furcadia (an online RPG-like social environment) all know the makers of the "furry" RPGs mentioned above,..and they were quite excited when they perused Dárdünah, offering to advertise Dárdünah for free on their site. This is significant, because Furcadia was the first MMO to ever reach their 10th anniversary, and has over 60,000 regular players who log in at least once a month, and generally daily. There is no "game" so to speak in Furcadia,..it relies entirely on player-generated content for the vast majority of its expansion, and has hundreds upon hundreds of player-created "dreams" that the only thing to do within them is to role-play with one another (and all that implies). Many of these areas have entire sets of incredibly detailed rules pertaining to exactly how you must role-play,..and the manner that various role-playing events (battle, items, magic, etc.) work. Again, 60,000 regular players..... That's alot of people who have a particular interest a more focused role-playing experience, coupled with expanded content dependant on player creativity and resourcefulness, mixed with the key ingredient of enjoying playing animal-people. And that's only a small fraction of the furry fandom at large.. And remember,..I'm not necessarily CATERING just to them (the other "furry" games did that and failed to make a huge splash), I'm trying to make a compelling, story-driven game that will entice them, and hopefully many others, to play....

    Originally posted by betafu
    My suggestion is to first figure out what you want the game to be. And if you want it to be a successful commercial enterprise with as many years as possible of supplements and additions there is significant work to be done. I think it's awesome. I never thought I'd enjoy playing an animal morph. But with that said, I got there through Scott. I can't say I would've gone there just from pulling the game off a shelf or onto my harddrive and reading it.

    That may be true,..and that may even still be true for you even after all my changes have been made... But I DID go into this understanding that I would not be able to satisfy everybody. This will never be a "killer app",..but it may just be popular enough to make me happy...

    Originally posted by betafu
    If the decision is made to make the game more flexible, Eric is right. The new chargen is good, but it could be a lot better. I'm certain there are areas of ambiguity (starting equipment) where we need to have examples. For those people that know nothing about the game and don't want to do research there should be examples, no matter how vague it is.


    But if I choose to put them in at all,..I don't WANT them to be vague. That will satisfy neither you, me, nor anyone else... I want them to be as close to what you, and those like you actually depict by specific example as I can tolerate. Those who don't necessarily feel we NEED such Starting Lists will probable not care or less what I put in, even if the lists are merely general suggestions, since they will continue to enjoy utterly making their own starting lists up themselves... But you guys who truly feel you NEED such lists to be happy,..WON'T be happy with just vague recommendations, any more that you were happy with the vague suggestion that you have enough info between your own imagination, the World Guide, the fiction found in the Basic Compendium, and the interesting tidbits that can be found on the Net.

    I need those of you who feel strongly enough about these lists to lay the raw foundations for me to work on them. I need you guys to help ME out by providing me with the essential 20 or so names of the basic overarching "General Archetypes" gleaned from the 120 or so actual specific professions, as well as three or so examples of the types of Starting Item suggestions that would apply to three-or-so of those General Archetypes. Armed with this information (which those who want those lists should be able to agree upon, as far as detail and specifics are concerned) I can present these before the rest of the Forum (as I do all such suggestions), and decide how to properly incorporate them into the rules, if that seems to be the right thing to do...

    Scottie ^^

  • Whew! Do I really want to join you guys in a head-buttin' fest with Scott? As a player, I still feel it is more important to have your Animal Template before you choose your Profession. I'll further this opinion with a bit of topic related humor;

    Originally posted by Ghorüm
    Section One:
    1. Choose animal. I know this is the first thing I want to do since this is the first game that allows me to play animal people. Actually, this isn't...


    [Zoli channeling Eric, as he channles Oboe] No, No Scott, I assure you that this Actually really IS the first thing I want to do. [/Zoli channeling Eric, as he channles Oboe]

    Granted, I am focusing on one particular aspect of this thread, but the post isn't as simple and singular as Betafu going on about a list of starting items, or me going on & on (& getting off topic) about an expanded items list. There are several people voicing thier strong opinions that Animal should come before Profession. I emphasise 'strong' because this subject has come up before in another thread (I believe the one where Joe was working on a streamlining outline of the old character creation process). And it is strong enough that people are raising their opinions up again dispite the fact that the last time was stonewalled as well.

    I'm not going to tell you what will or won't sell, or that if you don't heed these opinions, you will loose sales, I will rather state my opinion/philosiphy as to why the animal is more important than the profession.

    Currently, it is important to decide your profession first and formost (after having heard the background story) because the basis of the background governs to a large part what professions will be useful to take on the adventure wherever it might leed. After thisz step, it doesn't really matter what animal you play, it doesn't really even matter if the animal you WANT to play is availible to you because your profession may have occluded that animal because of cost.

    Certainly, you can jump back to your profession and adjust it's cost by weeding out some of the profession skills you think you can do without, but at that point the Animal has become more important than the Profession. Further, at that point, you are not really of that profession so much as 'a student' of that profession. that last is largely of a semantic nature, but signifigant enough to point out.

    When you are born (bear with me, this is part of my philosiphy) you are born first & foremost of a certain Jenu, and of a certain Caste, that has a healthy range of PROFESSIONS available to that Caste.

    Your Jenu should be considered first, and lean towards the sampeling of Jenu found within the local' of the adventure's starting place. After deciding what Jenu you want to be, and recording your Default Characteristics, Animal Abilities, Talents, Advantages, & Disadvantages, and Build Range, you should decide your Caste and choose your Profession from there basing that last off what will be a useful addition to the forming party.

    I cannot claim that every player would agree with this (though I'm happy to entertain the personal fantasy that they do) or that this will make character creation easier from a mechanical standpoint, but you have stated that you want this wourld to be story rich first (I'm paraphrasing a bit here) and then mechanically simple & easy to play. It may not be possible to rework the character creation process to preemt Profession with Animal Template so that it is just as or more streamlined than it is currently. It could even conceiveably make it more clunky. A new player won't know the difference. to them it will either be fun or it won't. I will put forth that, to me, creating a Traveler Character is far mor fun than creating a D&D character even though the Traveler character takes more time.

    Either way, there will be times when you wind up jumping back & forth in the character creation process as yout tweek & polish. Having the personal benifit of being an experienced palyer of the game, whenever I create a character, I will always decide what Jenu I want to play first, and note the associated costs of that template, and what caste I wish to be, then base my professional choice off the remainder of points I have left to spend when I embark on step#1 of the character creation process.

    That is my opinion, and right ot wrong from a mechanical standpoint, it is valid for me as a player.

    If over time it is learned that other players wind up doing this, you'll have an answer as to whether or not you have the relatively best process for character creation. Whether it warrent's a change in the process will still be at your descretion, and may not be worth your time or effort. If the character creation process is inherantly frustrating to players (new or experienced) then you should seriously consider giving more weight to it's critics regardless of how it effects creation times.

    I think in the very least, it would be effort well spent to locate a virgin group of playtesters to do a run thru of the Character Creation process as it stands and review their feedback after completion to see if they have an opinion with regards to the 'which comes first, chicken or egg' of Profession over Animal Template, among any other things. I also think that after going over the Backstory & defining the Power Level of the campaign, they should run through the creation process just using the books, without the benifit of you leeding them through the entire process, possible even without the benifit of you answering any questions that arise during the creation process. I think this would give you extremely valuable insight to the "off the shelf" experience that awaits players.


    After reviewing this before posting, I can think of no other points/opinions I wish to make, though I did just realize that in the above humor snippit, when Scott said ' Actually, this isn't... ' he was referring to Eric's statement that Dardunah was the first game that allowed him to choose an animal type to play, and NOT because it wasn't really the first thing Eric WANTED to do. I've left it in at this point simply because it made me laugh so hard when I first read it.

    In closing, though my opinion may count for little when placed against your effortes with this chapter and the balances you need to strike in the process, I hope at the least some of the thoughts on the fresh group of play testers will be useful. ;)
    I'd rather kiss Satha Vortoc on his sything death-hole

  • Originally posted by ZClip
    Whew! Do I really want to join you guys in a head-buttin' fest with Scott? As a player, I still feel it is more important to have your Animal Template before you choose your Profession.


    O.K. .. Part of the problem we are having here is that I only used the "Quick and Dirty" version of the Character Creation process,..you know,..the part where I ONLY used the abbreviated steps to run you through the process, instead of reading all the smaller juicy black words to you (that fill in the spaces between the larger maroon font),... I did this because I wanted to save you guys some reading time. This, perhaps, was a mistake,..because it caused you to miss some of the important details pertaining WHY you are doing what you are doing in the particular ORDER you are doing it when you make your character...

    But whether I run you through character creation, or another GM does,..SOMEONE is meant to guide that process using the Steps I have written out,..with both the larger text as a guide, as well as the "finer" print. Unless the person has bought the rules and is attempting to come up with the information of Step#1 on their own,...then all players NEED to have the input of the GM throughout the Character Creation process. This is not a process that indicates you can make your Character in "any old way or order" you want. And any new group that partakes of this process will be reading the documentation for the first time,..and should be creating their Character according to the (now rewritten) clearly delineated Steps and Sub-steps....in...that...order....

    I urge you to READ through Step#1 (Know the Story).... It flows almost seamlessly into Step#2 (where you choose your profession). There're MANY reasons why "Profession" comes immediatly AFTER "Know the Story",..but the MAIN one is that a player or GM reading it can SEE that one must come after the other because the directions and wording clearly LEAD you from one to the other. There is NEVER any moment where you are led to believe or it is suggested that you should pause and skip a step ahead to choose your Animal Template. Why? Because at that moment,..based on the directives of the character Creation Step-by-Step process that you should be following,..you have OTHER THINGS TO DO....

    Yes,..I know that your character was BORN an animal first and it seems like he BECAME a profession later in life.... But in a world where you are BORN into your Caste,..and your Caste TELLS you what professions you can follow,...and the profession of your PARENTS generally determines what profession YOU can or will be,..and because you have already gone over such aspects of your character's existance in Step #1 (the game's storyline, your lineage, House, and nationality, and even more importantly,..the kinds of things that you want to DO in the game,..such as magic, fighting, stealth, intrigue,..healing,..what-have-you...)....the MOST NATURAL next thing to do is to then decide what Caste you were born as (or have the GM decide it for you, if they have predisposed notions of what Caste the adventure will cater to) which is at the beginning of Step#2, and then immedietly CHOOSE YOUR PROFESSION because of it, which is the conclusion of Step#2.

    This IS the proper flow for the game Dardunah,..and what animal you happen to be is SECONDARY to ALL of this... But guess what! You get to do that NEXT!

    That is not to say that,..because you or anyone who else who picks up this game,..and is excited that you get to play an animal person, won't already have been THINKING about what animal they may want to play. They can do that all they want,..and it won't hurt the process... But what I do not wish them to do is put their chosen animal (and all the Stats it carries) BEFORE their Caste and Profession become solidified!

    Besides,..with the new way of filling out your Character Sheet,..and with the wording of the directives, a player is already made to know that the Skills that come with their profession are linked to certain Characteristics that determine how they get performed. When they get their profession and mark down those Skills on their sheet,..you can now plainly see what Characteristics they are linked to. This means that when they turn right around and choose their Animal Template in the next Step,..they can weigh their decision with what Animal might be best suited for the Characteristic needs (and therefore the entertaining Skill-driven storyline needs) of their chosen profession.

    Again,..the Story WILL come first in this game,..and that means assigning Caste and Profession BEFORE choosing your animal.

    Scottie ^^

  • Allright, Let me jump back in! :-)

    You know, even though I have changed camps a little bit in the interrim, I have to agree with the mighty Zoltan that the first thing I want to do is Choose my animal type. Now check this out:

    As Zoli hinted, the animal you play is completely irrelevant! Holy crap , that sucks, you're probably thinking. I was a little P.O'd when I realized it. I mean, I THOUGHT this was supposed to be a game about playing anthropomorphic fucking animals! Well, look at the facts, it isn't. It's about Dune-esque stories of political intrigue that just happen to incidentally be enacted by Moreau-esque animal people. Yeah, it was a bit of a bummer to me at first, because I wanted it to be about the cool animal dudes who could trample through brick walls with their elephant strength, or leap with catlike grace to the rooftops from the street with their Panther agility. But in the end, it isn't. It's about stories. The game is about a world of rich societal and cultural intrigue. Not animal men in the end. I am almost used to that fact now. I have pretty much accepted it. THAT, my friends, is why proffession will alwsy be before jenu in the character creation process. Scott doesn't want you to focus on the animal, he wants you to focus on the story. So there's no convincing him otherwise without undue outcry.

    Here's another little something that I didn't get or like at first but am coming to accept. And I am accepting it more and more because it is what sets this game apart from others, a lot! You've probably noticed by now that there are no monsters to defeat. In a manner of speaking the problem in Dardunah isn't "Them", it's "Us"! The same as with the real planet Earth we players live on. The big threats in life are other asshole janah, not Ogres or Dragons or even Orcs. It wierded me out, because of my vast experience with other role playing game systems. To not have monsters out there for me to kill and get experience and treasure, so I could become more powerful and afford to buy better stuff so I could kill bigger monsters and get bigger experience awards and bigger hauls of treasure so I could kill even bigger monsters etc etce and so on, really took a while to sink in.

    The focus in Dardunah is entirely different. Like it is in Cyberpunk, or Mekton. At first this seemed like we were missing something we needed to add to the rulebook. I was going to Scott and saying "we need more suthra! You call this a Monster Manual!? Look at these sad few pages of suthra! Where's the beef? How are people gonna know all about the things they're supposed to be killing all the time?!?" and then he laid it all out for me and there you have it. You dont save villages by killing Ogres in this game, you murder people for political ends or survival. Yes there's less heroism, but if you want to kill ogres and be a hero, there's always D&D resting on your shelves, just waiting to be picked up and provide you with all the expectations about role playing games you've been programmed to have.

    For that matter, there's no fucking TREASURE in Dardunah. I just kinda mentioned this a minute ago but lets look at this further as it relates to the whole item list thing. In dardunah you serve a lord ( for the most part ) and the reality is that all you own belongs to him sort of. BUT, and this is where the balance is, all that he owns is reasonably availalbe to you!!! Check it: Your lord provides food, lodging, someplace to ply your proffession, all the materials to do your profession, and also some money for doing your profession if you want it. So your items are incidental in a way, because anything you need, your lord, who is fabuously wealthy, has provided. Not only that, anything you think you need that you don't naturally assume you have, such as a Skyship, War-Chinti, a band of trained ninjas, siege weapons, a demon-fighing mangai sir'hibas from Vizedhara, etc. You just ask for and it is usually provided if it is really needed. So immense resources are at your disposal. God bless the inequality of the feudal system! Anyway, this may seems a bit too communist to our American sensibilities, but it isn't. It's like being a CIA or NSA agent for the government. In fact, being sunborn DOES make you capable of dispensing justice and punishment on the lower castes so you're even MORE like a government agent, Wheeee!

    So anyway, don't sweat the possesions so much is my point. Even if your a band of pirates, it's assumed that the money you make pillaging other vessels has paid for nearly anything you might want to have that doesn't qualify as a resource. I mean shit, if your character concept includes the fact that like the character Jane in the television series Firefly, you have a whole BEDROOM full of guns, well then there you go, you have a whole bedroom full of guns. It doesn't cost you anything, you just have it. I mean, hell! you can only carry six or seven around at a time anyway so big deal. Since there's no limit on reasonable possessions, and there's no treasure to gain, there no need for a big ol' honkin items list. Unless you just want to sit and imagine all the shit a potter needs to ply his craft and since my father in the real world was a potter for a while, I can tell you that it isn't much and it's all pretty cheap and irrelevant stuff that won't help you on a mission. You just have to get used to assuming that you always have what you need. And think of this if it helps, in hero-action movies does the hero ever want for dipshit crap like iron spikes, 50 feet of rope or a waterskin, HELL FUCKING NO, because Arnold is too busy kicking the monkey ass of the Predator, Rambo is too busy killing all the Sherriffs deputies with punji sticks and a bow he made, Robocop is too busy blasting thousands of rounds per minute at ganglords and drug dealers to even THINK about the fact that he logically should have run out of bullets in the first minute. But that's important to see here. Your the Arnold! You're the Rambo, just keep doing the kick ass, heroic shit you are making a story about and noone will care that you just pulled a hand grenade out of nowhere to blow up the viet cong colonel's hut. Personally, I LOVE this fact about Dardunah, now that I think about it.

    So that's what I'm thinking about today. Let's see what everybody else has to say.
    "Daggra" means "Enemy" in Tibetan.
    "Chora" means "Thief" in Sanskrit.

  • I forgot the main point of posting today

    Okay, in my other post about the character creation process, I laid out a simple methodology for setting up a character creation system. What I didn't do was explain all the nitpicking changes that would have to occur to our current system to still achieve everything.

    What I also didn't point out is that yhe method I was proposing is just the D&D system of character creation that every other RPG has basically followed for decades.

    Sadly, for my suggestion to help Scott at all, I have to outline all the nitpicking changes that would make the system like I had proposed. So here I'll give it a try:

    Section One: - the basics phase
    1. Choose animal. I know this is the first thing I want to do since this is the first game that allows me to play animal people.

    a. Change the animal templates so that they dont have a cost. You just choose what you want to be and you get all that stuff on the template. Don't worry yet, there's going to be an equal amount of LESS POINTS you are given later to buy up stuff so it wont matter. Since the Jenu is irrelevant to the story, this wont matter anyway. But you'll see I have taken account of this later.

    b. The things you get from your anuimal template will all be given at the dice pool level as shown, and they will be modified later, but in a simpler, buy up stage that will buy up everything at once. We'll get to that.

    2. Choose Profession. This is the second most important decision and the second most important aspect of character creation. an interesting change in the profession archetypes will be that an initial value for each skill will be given to show what would be expected of a person proficcient in that profession, plus it makes tghe buy-up section later easier.

    a. remove the cost of the profession archetypes as well. This is important to the story so your first impulse will be to rebel against this idea, but with my simpler chargen system this wont matter. Consider that again, you will simply be given less points to buy up shit with later.

    b. Add in the possibility of NOT choosing a profession archetype! I know this works because this is how it used to be and this is how a lot of other 'point-buy' based rpg systems work. players who choose not ot have a proffession archetype will get more points to buy their stuff in that later buy up phase.

    3. Assign Characteristics. These bones of the character are the next most important thing in any role playing game.
    a. you don't do this yet now because you are going to buy up everything later, and you've allready been given your characteristics by the animal template you chose earlier. So scratch step three!

    Section Two: - The "buy-up" phase
    1. Choose Advantages. In this eady step we simplify by combining talents and advantages into a single thing and choose all the junk you want to buy that will benefit your character. This is the point where a concerted sit-down wil be necessary, for the game creators. What we have to do is adjust the amount of points given to buy up stuff by an average loss of what all the templates and archetypes have allready cost in the old system. It's simple math that will take 20 minutes no doubt but presto! You then subtract that amount from the allready established power-level amounts in the beginning of the character creation chapter and you have the points a player is given to spend here.

    a. you've allready been given some advantages by your animal template and possibly even your profession archetype. Again we DO lump talents and advantages into one heading since what they do is benefit youre character. Sure they do it for different reasons and in different ways, but they boil down to the same thing: "stuff that helps you" This is the first step of the buy-up phase since this is the first stuff that isnt just 'given' to you by a template or archetype. The emphasis is on keeping to your original character concept here and not just buying everything you think might help your character succeed. That has to be stressed. So bam, you buy your 'advantages'

    2. Choose Disadvantages/ Drawbacks. In this step we assign all the horrible plot elements that will get us more points for the next important step, buying skills! These are all the things lumped under the heading of: "stuff that hinders your character" Again, you've allready been given some disads by your animal template and possibly even your profession archetype, so these are just extras based on your character concept or if you want ot maximize your availalbe points to spend on 'buy-ups'.

    Section Three: - you know what? Screw section three, character creation will now have only two sections. It's even simpler than I thought! Section three is now only another part of section two, the buy-up phase. Read on:

    3. Buy Skills. The new character sheets will allready have you everyman skill noted in a slightly sectioned off area of the skills list perhaps? Or maybe just have a faint "3" allready grayscaled into the blank for their value so you can easily write over it with a new level you buy it up to. You've allready been given a bunch of skills if you chose to use a proffession archetype. Now you can buy them up or down based on your character concept. Also you can now buy some extra skills you just want to have. Like Acrobatics and dodge/block

    4. Buy Magic and Martial arts. As complex as these are, they deserve their own step. Buy em up and you're done!

    That goes a little way towards explaining how this whole process could be VERY simplified, sure it takes a little work, but I don't think an unreasonable amount of work, for the game developers. That encapsulates the sweeping changes that were in my head though. and BOY would that be an easy chargen process. I'm sure that Joe and Matt can expound on these basics to fill in the blanks i may have left.
    "Daggra" means "Enemy" in Tibetan.
    "Chora" means "Thief" in Sanskrit.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ghorüm ().

  • RE: I forgot the main point of posting today

    Hmmnnn,..O.K. I do have several comments to make concerning this,..but I want to give others the chance to make their comments first...

    You guys hear that?

    Comments away!

    (Actually,..I do have one quick comment to make,..and that is,..what jenu you are is NOT irrelevant to the story,..as I said before,..it is merely SECONDARY to your Caste/Profession,..and a CLOSE second at that,..which is why it is the Step immediately there-after....)

    Scottie ^^


  • ,..what jenu you are is NOT irrelevant to the story,..as I said before,..it is merely SECONDARY to your Caste/Profession,..and a CLOSE second at that,..which is why it is the Step immediately there-after...


    No one said it is irrelivant to the story. It merely doesn't matter for story purposes if a player gets to play the jenu they want to play. If a low power level (40 ability points) story set in Hathiyar, for example, has the player's charater filling the need for a Great Seer (27 point Profession) and that player wants to be an Elephant Janah (21 Ability Points), then it is just not going to happen. Granted this is a full blown "worst case" scenario, which doesn't make sense why a low level campaign would call for the need of a Great Seer, but that is not really the point of importance. What I'm illustrating here is that a stratight run through of the creation process can prevent a player from playing the animal (s)he wants to play.

    Any player worth their salt will, in the end, figure out a way to get what they want, that's just the way people are. Whether they start over with a cheaper Profession, selcet a different Animal Template , or jump back and forth in the creation process to balance the tallies to get what they want ( or, like myself, plan ahead & record the cost of the Animal Template they want while the GM is reading out the backstory, and letting the Animal Template secretly govern their Profession).

    As the process stands, Jenu doesn't really matter. Characters must satisfy the story before they satisfy the player. Hopefully ( and I would even say 'usually') Pleasing both isn't going to be a problem. The current incarnation of Character Creation is a very functional system grounded in good solid logic, and probably the best that can reasonably hope to be acheived, ok, VERY good work Scott. I, none the less, want to secure my Animal Template first and foremost above all other considerations.
    I'd rather kiss Satha Vortoc on his sything death-hole

  • Originally posted by ZClip

    ,..what jenu you are is NOT irrelevant to the story,..as I said before,..it is merely SECONDARY to your Caste/Profession,..and a CLOSE second at that,..which is why it is the Step immediately there-after...


    No one said it is irrelivant to the story. It merely doesn't matter for story purposes if a player gets to play the jenu they want to play.


    Actually,..Ghorum said in the posting JUST before mine that it WAS irrelevant,..which is why I felt it necessary to mention that...

    And it DOES matter for story purposes if a player gets to play the jenu they want,..it just matters slightly LESS than their professional choice,..which is why they choose their profession FIRST. If it didn't matter at all to me to let them have the jenu they want,..then I wouldn't let them go back to their profession and remove Skills that come with it till they have the points they need... It's not players (worth their salt) "getting away with" anything by decreasing the cost of their profession in this manner,..I actually encourage that in the newly-written Character Creation edition,...here:

    F. Subtract the Ability Point cost of the profession(s) from the number of Ability Points you were given to build your Character. If you wish to decrease the cost of your profession, you may subtract skills from that profession. Each subtracted skill causes the profession to cost one (1) less point.

    You have no need to "let your choice of animal template secretly govern your profession by secuing your Animal Template first and foremost above all other considerations"... The ONLY "other consideration" that comes first IS your profession,..and the rules ALLOW you to change the cost of the profession by removing associated Skills if you so desire....

    There's no reason to be concerned,..or to "secretly" scan ahead to record the Animal Template Cost,..even in the most extreme situation as you described. That's how I handled it with Richard! He wanted to be a Lord AND a Raptor at LOW level! So he looked back at the end of the last Step (which he had just completed) and deleted Skills from his Lord profession till it allowed him to have enough to purchase the Animal Template he wanted.... Simple... No "GM trickery" required... This made him seem more like a "fledgling Lord" which not only fit into his character concept,..but made perfect sense considering you guys were starting at Low power level...

    Later,..when he took Drawbacks,..he even had the opportunity to "buy back" some of those Skills if he desired...

    Scottie ^^