Ok, hombre,, I'm gonna try to field this one to assist you w/ the creation of the character, not to address any typographical or presentational info that may need to be called to Scott's attention...and it's a lil late, so forgive the useage of contractions where I can, I'll try to make them obvious as best I can right now.

So you got your total character & ability points for the power level of your game, you "buy" the Cats, Large template cause ya wanna play a lion, Cost: 14 ability Points(AP) & 16 Character Points(CP).

Just to make sure, I'm going to state that you get Those talents you listed at the base values of the template...

Body Armor 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . Initial Cost: VIGor . . . Link: VIG . . . Template's VIG: 4
Night Vision 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . Initial Cost: 2AP . . . Link: PERception . . . Template's PER: 2
Tracking Sense 2 . . . . . . . . . . . Initial Cost: 3AP . . .Link: PER . . . Template's PER: 2
Natural Weaponry (fangs) 4 . . . . Initial Cost: 1AP . . . Link: AGiLity . . . Template's AGL: 4
Natural Weaponry (claws) 4 . . . . Initial Cost: 1AP . . . Link: AGL . . . Template's AGL: 4
Great Leap 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Initial Cost: 2AP . . . Link: STRength . . . Template's STR: 4

The above should show that the ability scores you listed ALL have the correct starting values for the animal template's Characteristic defaults.

If you wanna double check my NFO, the table I refrenced this from is in the dreaded PDF file on page 73 (ya printed books!!!)

NOW, I am understanding that you have put extra CP into your Characteristics. If that is correct, and any of those characteristics happen to "govern" any Animal Ability, Talent, or Skill, then that Ability, Talent, or Skill will automagically raise to meet the new higher default.

So back to your character, if you raised your Perception to 7, your Night Vision automagically goes up to 7, and you pay no additional APs.

Does that make sense?

In the Black Lotus campaign (sp?) I would save up my story points and throw them all at Agility and Dex every chance I got so I'd automagically raise my combat & Valah skills at the same time, it would also raise any abilities & talents linked to Agl & Dex.... Handy tactic.

ZClip is absolutely correct, Joe. When you first purchase an Animal Template, the initial value of your Animal Abilities are designed to match their associated Characteristic in the base value you get when purchasing a Template. When you raise your starting Characteristics higher than your base, then any associated Animal Abilities automatically get uplifted to that same value, and should be recorded as such. In other words,..if you had a Night Vision of 2 (based on your beginning Perception of 2, as came with the Animal template you purchased), and you used some of the remaining Character Points to raise your Perception to 6, then ANY Animal Ability based on your Perception would ALSO be raised, at no extra cost, to 6.. This applies, later in the game to ANY Skill or Animal Ability based on any Characteristic you raise,..that Skill or Animal Ability will also raise by an EQUAL number of points. During Character Creation, you would not have purchased any Skills yet, so there's nothing to raise yet,..but your raised Characteristics will affect your Skill values later, when you DO purchase them.

Scottie

Now, to make sure I'm understanding this, myself ...


Buy template.
Record Characteristics from Template
Record Animal Abilities from Template.
Spend CP to raise Characteristics.
Spend no other points at all, whatsoever, in any way shape or form, and raise the Animal Abilities to equal the relevant Characteristics.

Now ... at this point, if you want to raise the Animal Abilities, you'd spend Ability Points, right?

I think I'm finally getting the hang of this ... Of course, that could just be the fact that it's 4 AM.

Buy template.
Record Characteristics from Template
Record Animal Abilities from Template.
Spend CP to raise Characteristics.
Spend no other points at all, whatsoever, in any way shape or form, and raise the Animal Abilities to equal the relevant Characteristics.

Now ... at this point, if you want to raise the Animal Abilities, you'd spend Ability Points, righ?

Correct. THEN after you have played a few sessions, and have accumulated some story points, use them to buy up your primary characteristics as high as your GM will allow you for your powerlevel BEFORE you start investing them in individual skills. (Some GMs [SCOTT!!!] may also have you devote some "in game" time to "exercising" the skill you want to raise before they let you actually raise it)This will have a blanketing effect on raising all the skills & stuff associated with the characteristic you raise.

In anticipation of potential further confusion;

Ex: Taki Mahd has been played for several months, he started off with DEX:7 and a Valah skill of 9 (pumped up 2 points at time of creation). during the several months of play, he spent ingame time practicing Fast Draw, Valah, Cartography, and anything that would cause him to "exercise" his DEX.

Now that he has the points, he tells the GM he wants to raise his DEX 2 points, well that's a purdy big jump in characteristic, the GM decides to allow for 1 point to be added now, & he needs to keep "exercising" his DEXto add the 2nd point later. Taki spends the story points to raise his DEX to 8, and all his DEX based skills raise a point (including Valah which becomes 10,, the tales of his "legendary" skill w/ a Valah weapon now begin to spread through the lands he travles)

A month or so later, he is allowed to raise his DEX another point, raising all his DEX based skills by 1 point, including Valah to 11. At this point, in the Black Lotus campaign, any skill above 10 was considered beyond legendary, Taki had to "Specalize" in one specific type of Valah that would allow him 11 dice to attack with, he chose the pistol, since he carried 7 on him most of the time. So the end result was his Valah stayed at 10, but if he attacked w/ a pistol, he threw 11 dice. If he just used a rifle, or cannon, he threw 10.

I am uncertain if the "Specalization clause" has been officially implimented, or done away with completely, but by the end of the campaign Taki had a 10 in Dex, a 14 w/ Valah rifles, and a mondo-honkin' 15 in pistols. it was a S L O W progression, but he had enough DEX based skills that the point dump was well worth the ending results,,, he could also do things (theorretically) like draw a map of the city of Sadam (in perspective, no less) on a grain of rice.

I hope this helps to "mentally cement" the way Characteristics directly govern Abilities, Talents, & Skills.

Originally posted by ZClip
Correct. THEN after you have played a few sessions, and have accumulated some story points, use them to buy up your primary characteristics as high as your GM will allow you for your powerlevel BEFORE you start investing them in individual skills.

Please keep in mind, however, that is is ZClip's advice, as opposed to a specific recommendation within the book. Whereas it IS a good idea, once the game is under way, to buy up your Characteristics, which in turn will raise any associated (linked) Skills and Abilities by the same number, it IS a fairly expensive thing to do. Some people choose to merely buy up individual Skills and Abilities instead.

Originally posted by ZClip
Example: Taki Mahd has been played for several months, he started off with DEX:7 and a Valah skill of 9 (pumped up 2 points at time of creation). during the several months of play, he spent ingame time practicing Fast Draw, Valah, Cartography, and anything that would cause him to "exercise" his DEX.

Now that he has the points, he tells the GM he wants to raise his DEX 2 points, well that's a purdy big jump in characteristic, the GM decides to allow for 1 point to be added now, & he needs to keep "exercising" his DEXto add the 2nd point later. Taki spends the story points to raise his DEX to 8, and all his DEX based skills raise a point (including Valah which becomes 10,, the tales of his "legendary" skill w/ a Valah weapon now begin to spread through the lands he travles)

A month or so later, he is allowed to raise his DEX another point, raising all his DEX based skills by 1 point, including Valah to 11. At this point, in the Black Lotus campaign, any skill above 10 was considered beyond legendary, Taki had to "Specalize" in one specific type of Valah that would allow him 11 dice to attack with, he chose the pistol, since he carried 7 on him most of the time. So the end result was his Valah stayed at 10, but if he attacked w/ a pistol, he threw 11 dice. If he just used a rifle, or cannon, he threw 10.

I am uncertain if the "Specalization clause" has been officially implimented, or done away with completely, but by the end of the campaign Taki had a 10 in Dex, a 14 w/ Valah rifles, and a mondo-honkin' 15 in pistols. it was a S L O W progression, but he had enough DEX based skills that the point dump was well worth the ending results,,, he could also do things (theorretically) like draw a map of the city of Sadam (in perspective, no less) on a grain of rice. ;).

Just as a note, this example is from a time before the rule was implemented that no Characteristic or Animal Ability may ever be higher than a 12. The idea of "specialization" comes into play anytime someone wishes to excell in a specific type of discipline. Special gun skills, in this example. One can be generally good at using valah (gunpowder weapons) of all kinds, but if one wishes to be "exceptionally good" at one particular type, let's say pistols, you'd need to buy that as a special skill all its own, which should be done at the time of character creation, or later, in the game, using the rules for buying any particular skill. That special skill, like any skill, can be raised above other similar skills.

Scottie

Originally posted by Scott Jones

Please keep in mind, however, that is is ZClip's advice, as opposed to a specific recommendation within the book.

Haha! well, yes, that is just my opinion, but if you don't do it the way I say, you'll make the baby Jeebuth cry.

The idea of "specialization" comes into play anytime someone wishes to excell in a specific type of discipline. Special gun skills, in this example. One can be generally good at using valah (gunpowder weapons) of all kinds, but if one wishes to be "exceptionally good" at one particular type, let's say pistols, you'd need to buy that as a special skill all its own, which should be done at the time of character creation, or later, in the game, using the rules for buying any particular skill. That special skill, like any skill, can be raised above other similar skills.

Is that an official rule now? I.e. is it documented in the manual?

And glad I could help, Joe. It is a rare & pleasing thing for me when I have more than just bull$#!+ & humor to offer

Originally posted by ZClip
Is that an official rule now (speaking of "specialization"? I.e. is it documented in the manual?

Not really,..and that's actually on purpose. I've tried to keep the Skill rules somewhat open-ended so that they may be interpreted as the GM wishes. Some GMs may WANT their players to be able to raise their statistics higher in a more general fashion, not caring about whether it may seem a little odd that when you know some generic skill, you know all related disciplines that seem to fall within that Skill description equally as well. For the way they run their story, it may not really matter.

For me, at the time I was running the playtest earlier, the purchasing of Skills and Characteristics allowing dice-pools higher than 12 was getting out of hand (i.e. I didn't like what Skills of 13, 14, and 15, like the valah skills you were cultivating, were doing to gameflow and balance), so I decided to take a cue from some of the Knowledge Skill descriptions, which hint at choosing to have either a "general" understanding of the topic, or choosing instead to purchase the Knowledge Skill as if you are "focussing" upon a specific facet of that knowledge.

As a GM, the way I chose to play that out for the knowledge skill, is that players buying it would tell me if they were "specializing" in some particular field of study. Example: A character purchasing Art knowledge might choose (after reading the description) to focus specifically on the art of Visedharah (his native land), and would place that in parenthesis beside the listing of that Skill on his Character Sheet. For me, as a GM, I would decide that even though this meant they had less "general' knowledge of art the world over, if they specifically were rolling to reference some strange piece of Visedi art they found or saw, they would be able to glean even MORE info from the same roll than someone else who did NOT "specialize" in Visedharan art.

So when I detected an imbalance in the earlier playtesting sessions, I decided to make you "specialize" in a similar way with your beloved pistols, since that focus you were giving them did not logically apply to every other type of black-powder weapon in the world. I treated it like a Language Skill (as described in the rules). You buy a new Skill for each language you decide to become fluent in or learn. I merely applied the same logic to the guns, in your case specifically, because it had become an "issue".

Now that the rules state there will be no Skills higher than a 12, it may seem like less of an issue for most GMs. But even if it is,..I expect them to apply whatever logic they see as appropriate to handle their own game's imbalances as they see fit, based on the way they see the general rules working. If a GM decided to change, or add to, a rule to fix an imbalance within their own game, then more power to them. Other GMs may not find this an issue at all. 'Specialization' wasn't really something required by (or meant to be included in) the existing rules, merely something I added, in your case, to fix an imbalance I perceived. 'Specialization' is ALSO something that some of my other players chose to adopt to help define their particular areas of expertise concerning their other skills, once they realized that doing so might give them juicier tidbits of info when rolling for that specific focussed interest. Again,..this is merely how I chose to interpret the Skills. Other GMs may choose to handle it differently. I leave it to them and their players to decide how it will go in their campaign.

Scottie

Originally posted by Scott Jones

For me, at the time I was running the playtest earlier, the purchasing of Skills and Characteristics allowing dice-pools higher than 12 was getting out of hand (i.e. I didn't like what Skills of 13, 14, and 15, like the valah skills you were cultivating, were doing to gameflow and balance)

Well I don't wanna rat anyone out *CoughEzra* but in all fairness, thought I was the first one to break 10 with an offinsive skill in that last session, someone else was slinging a base 15 dice that their problems (21 with their do-hickies & bling bling) before I got my pistol up to 12,, in fact learning that piece of info was what encouraged me to push my pistol up.

Originally posted by Scott Jones
so I decided to take a cue from some of the Knowledge Skill descriptions, which hint at choosing to have either a "general" understanding of the topic, or choosing instead to purchase the Knowledge Skill as if you are "focussing" upon a specific facet of that knowledge.

Well, all in all I though it was a reasonable request, and in a way I found it a rather satisfying requirement, I had the feeling that even with my diminished stature (Try being 2.5' tall & captaining a pirate crew that included Oboe, Eric, & Ezra) My reputation gave the smarter NPCs a healthy respect of me(If my command crew won't respect me, my enemies damn well bettered), and I think definitly kept the combat challenging... of course, that's just the worldview I created for myself

Originally posted by ZClip
Well I don't wanna rat anyone out *CoughEzra* but in all fairness, thought I was the first one to break 10 with an offinsive skill in that last session, someone else was slinging a base 15 dice that their problems (21 with their do-hickies & bling bling) before I got my pistol up to 12,, in fact learning that piece of info was what encouraged me to push my pistol up.

Heh heh!! Well,..really it's not about who did what first,..honestly,..it's about making sure that imbalances in the gameplay aren't easy to achieve in the future. In truth, I'm not as concerned that bonuses and such allow a character to ROLL more dice than 12, I'm really more concerned to make sure that the cap one has for the Skill/Ability's value, as written on their Character Sheet, doesn't go above 12. I'm sure that you aren't the only one that ended up slinging more that 12 dice at stuff, and you and Ezra weren't the only ones to have Skill/Ability values actually written on your Character Sheet above 12... In fact,..I seem to remember one or two of Eric's characters having some high scores as well... No matter,...that's what playtesting an ever-changing and developing rules system is all about!

Scottie

O.K. for the sake of "cleanup" on the forum, consider this matter resolved by the recently changed Character Creation chapter, available for download on this site.

I shall now lock this Thread, so no more posting on it is possible. If there are further issues concerning this particular item, feel free to start a new Thread.

Scottie