Originally posted by betafu

2. I'm checking p. 27 at the beginning of chargen for the table Scott talked about, and I can't see it still. I'm looking for one table that details the point costs for talents, advantages, skills, animal abilities, etc. One-stop shopping - not for the individual items per se, but for the general costs. Instead I have to dig through the chapters.

There is no "one list" for talents, advantages, skills, animal abilities, & Drawbacks. HOWEVER, you can look on the following pages for discrete( <= why does that look misspelled?) lists:

Animal Abilities 73
Talents 81
Advantages 87
Drawbacks 92
Skills 103

Scott, it might very well be a good idea to include a page in the back that has all the lists & tables a more advanced player would need for rapid character building refrences, lean & mean like.

GURPS had something like that, though it took up like 4 or 8 pages I seem to recall

Originally posted by betafu
This is my second pass at character generation, and some ideas I had:

I'll see if I can address them all...

Originally posted by betafu
1. Can you use a phrase other then 'Abilities' and 'Animal Abilities'? It's confusing. For one, they're the same name. Secondarily, 'Abilities' encompasses several things, and I think a better name would refer to what the points are spent on.

Hmnn,..perhaps.. I have also been using the word "attributes" to describe aspects of the characters,..but usually that includes Characteristics as well.. Honestly,.."Abilities" is just a general term for "things that your character can do",..whereas "Animal Abilities" is merely a specific category of Abilities,..you know,..like "Books" and "School Books"... Do you have a suggestion?

Originally posted by betafu
2. I'm checking p. 27 at the beginning of chargen for the table Scott talked about, and I can't see it still. I'm looking for one table that details the point costs for talents, advantages, skills, animal abilities, etc. One-stop shopping - not for the individual items per se, but for the general costs. Instead I have to dig through the chapters.

The table I was talking about on page 27 (yes,..I know I originally said 72, like a total goober) was addressing this original question:
"The book really, really needs a table that describes what you pay Characteristic points for, and what you pay Ability points for."
Here was my answer:
It actually already has that. It's called the Point System chart, and its located on page 27 of the Basic Compendium in the Character Creation Chapter, right where it should be, at the very beginning. It explains exaclty how many Characteristic Points and Ability Points you get when you begin the game at whatever Power Level the GM chooses, and the descriptions of the table below it describes exactly what these things are, and what you use them to pay for, in detail.

It sounds like you're asking a different question here,..and the answer to this new question is, sadly,..there is no such table, nor will there be, since that goes against my Step-by-Step desire for Character Creation. Talents, advantages, skills, animal abilities, etc.,.. are all meant to be separately dealt with in their own individual Step each, not all at once, as would be indicated by having them all under one single Table. I really think the Step-by Step method is the way to go, and I'm sure I CAN make that method work, with the right clarifications where needed.

Originally posted by betafu
3. I agree with another point brought up in my talks that while I can walk through chargen, it doesn't seem to flow naturally, step by step. I'm going to take better notes this time and try to come up with a better suggestion for the order of things. It seems the order is off some.

That could be,..and we can certainly discuss other possible orders as long as there is logic to different orders to discuss. I absolutely welcome various suggestions as to order, and of course will bring up my own logic as to the current chosen order for the Steps,..as I have with Joe. There may indeed be a better order to consider that will make the Step-by-Step process flow more smoothly,..as long as it doesn't de-emphasise the importance of story and fiction in favor of numerics and power-gaming. That is my only concern.

Originally posted by betafu
4. A minor concern, and one that we're going to test as our game kicks off - have you done any testing with the other power levels? Have you determined for example if it's possible to have a long-running Heroic game without players capping out at their skill max early on, or giving out very little in the way of experience/story points? I imagine if there are problems we'll find out soon enough.

Are you referring to Maximum Characteristic Ranking? That ranking, as stated in the discription of that field under the table on page 27, only applies at Character Creation time. As the game goes on, you may buy up your Characteristics with earned Story Points as desired and able. If you are, instead, referring to the maximum allowable Skill or Animal Ability of 12,..I've actually only had an issue with that as characters start heading into Legendary Power Level with their developing character (after having played for YEARS starting at Heroic Level). I, in fact, eventually had to UP my amount of Story Points given to 2 (instead of merely 1) points at the end of each game session, because people felt they weren't able to progress fast enough!

As far as testing other power levels, that's what this up and coming playtest session for my gamers is for me,...testing the game mechanics with a group starting out at Low Power Level. Wish me luck!

Originally posted by betafu
5. Too many characteristic points. At least for Heroic. I actually asked Joe if I could toss some away. I'd chop at least 10 to 20 points off of what you're allocated.

I've actually never had this issue in the past, and we've always played starting at Heroic Level. At Heroic Level,...with 54 points to divide among 9 characteristics with a maximum of 8 each, you shouldn't have ANY left over. I mean,..8x9 is 72,..so with only 54, how is it possible to have too much?

When you buy an Animal Template,..it gives you a "deal" on Characteristic points... For instance, at Heroic Power Level (given 54 points), if I were going to be a Lion, it would cost me 16 Character Points, but would get me 22 points worth of starting Characteristics. 54 - 16 = 38 left to raise the base Characteristics I get from the Template. As it mentions later (under Step #4) if I want to buy up the starting Characteristics I got after purchasing my Animal Template during character creation, then I need only spend the Characteristic Points I have left, point per point, after buying the Animal Template initially. It would actually take a total of 55 points to buy any Animal Template's base starting Characteristics up to 8 each,..and since you would only have 38 left after purchasing a Template with your Heroic Level number of points, you actually have to pick and choose which Characteristics you want to actually raise, and by how much. Even if you divided the remaining points evenly between all nine Characteristics, you still would only get to add about 4 to each. I've tailored it so that you should never be able to max out more than a few of the Characteristics no matter what Power Level you start at.

You may have to show me how you are arriving at "too many"...

Originally posted by betafu
6. Brownies. When Scott comes, I want brownies. I'll even kick in for the ingredients! But I have informed our friends of Scott's skillz, and that he did in fact come correct, culinarily speaking.

If I have time before-hand I will be GLAD to make some brownies for you guys.. I haven't done those in awhile! I've actually been making some chocolate-crust blackberry cobblers recently,...the BEST!

Originally posted by betafu
I want to say overall the depth of this world is amazing. I love the background. I actually really like the game. But I think there's some work to be done in streamlining chargen, making lots of stuff more clear, and perhaps some balance issues. I would really love to nice full pass at the rules after an editor has had a crack or two at it - I bet from an understanding standpoint it's going to make a great difference, and I applaud Scott looking into that.

That's all.

Well THANKS!! I agree there's alot of ironing out to do,..and I'm hoping to get a line on an Editor really soon (hopefully cheap to free, because I have little splurge money left for a bit...).

Keep up the great input.. All this stuff forces me to scrutinize my own work,..and THINK!!

Now I'm off to bed... I have to get some surgery tomorrow morning...

Scottie

PS: I use the page type in at the bottom a lot, when I get to refrencing dharater building I skip back & forth between those pages and page 4 (which is the part of the TOC that tells me where the lists are)

Someday I'll prolly have it committed to what passes for memory in my enfeabled mind.

Originally posted by ZClip
Scott, it might very well be a good idea to include a page in the back that has all the lists & tables a more advanced player would need for rapid character building refrences, lean & mean like.

GURPS had something like that, though it took up like 4 or 8 pages I seem to recall

Yikes! I'm actually gonna avoid creating a "table-rich" section like that anywhere in the books. 'Advanced' or not,..I don't want anyone attempting to make their characters outside of the Step-by-Step order. That's a recipe for failure on several levels. The most I may provide is a section containing a "down and dirty" process like the one Joe was working on over at his site. That boils it down nicely, but doesn't remove it from the Step-by-Step method. I'll be eventually taking Joe's method, refining it (hopefully without making it more complex), and putting it in the Basic Compendium in the same way that there's a "Quick Combat Summary" page, that boiled down the Combat Round.

I am now going to bed for real....

Thanks for the well-wishes over the phone ZClip...

Scottie

O.K. for the sake of "cleanup" on the forum, consider this matter resolved by the recently changed Character Creation chapter, available for download on this site.

I shall now lock this Thread, so no more posting on it is possible. If there are further issues concerning this particular item, feel free to start a new Thread.

Scottie